"I have already used the name Go for *MY* programming language" | Hacker News Reader

"I have already used the name Go for MY programming language"

code.google.com

148 pointsarchon81093 comments

In the heavy weights league, there was no silly-slapping or hair pulling between Rob Pike and Luca Cardelli vs Alan Kay and Dan Ingalls over "Squeak":

http://lucacardelli.name/Papers/Squeak.pdf [A New Jersey approach to the GUI, 1985]

http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=263754&coll=portal... [Smalltalk dialect, 1997]

Their stated goals are identical, each more identical than the other.

I always wondered about that; there's an excellent tech-talk by Rob Pike on newsqueak here that I watched some time ago: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=810232012617965344

(It includes the same primes example that crops up in the Go tutorial)

It's not surprising that there would be namespace collisions given the thousands of programming languages there are out there and the limited number of "cool" names available. I suspect someone at Google could have merely consulted http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_programming_languages and decided that "Go" was free.

That said, I still find it inexcusable that Adobe's over-the-top PR machine has stolen the name "flex" from a well-known open-source lexer generator... mumble mumble....

'Go' is a ridiculously short and context-less name for either project. He really doesn't have much of a soapbox to stand on and proclaim that his name is unique and unusual.

I suggest they both switch their names to something less short, I'm recommending 'Chess' or 'Checkers'.

'Go' is 100% longer than C.

It's also 33% quicker to type than C++

probably only about 20% since you need only two keys for both :P

A more careful analysis: "C++" requires the use of the shift key for all characters, and extension below the home row and to the top row. On the other hand, the characters of "Go" are on the home row and the row above. The shift key is only required for the 1st character.

So the actions for typing "C++" are going to be [shift] [C] [+] [+]. For typing "Go" [shift] [G] [o]. The "+" keys are repeated, which makes the 2nd action faster. However, the spread between C and + is much wider than between G and O.

I would guess that it's probably 33% more.

You need three keys or two keys and a long hand movement to type C++, but you only need two keys for 'go' - and the keys for go are alternate hands and strong fingers, but even the nearest + symbol requires a weak finger or a contortion.

Also, go is typed as a typical word more often than ++ is, so it's more habitual and familiar and automatic.

I suggest it's much faster.

C is also, and was in 1970, a terrible name for a language.

In fairness to K&R though, they weren't able to predict that search engines would exist and single-letter names would be a pain in the ass. It was still a terrible name though.

Were they trying to save memory?

I see their irc channel is called

   #go-nuts

Maybe they should rename the language to

   go-nuts

and call their package manager

   get-nuts

;-)

Too bad Amazon didn't release it - it could have been called "awe-nuts".

Found an article on Go! from Annals of Mathematics and Artificial Intelligence[1].

Google's usage of the name will probably end up in more public interest in Go! simply because of this dispute.

[1]http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=998367

Yep, that normally happens. In my case I did not know about Go! until I read about Go.

Google isn't allowed to use the name 'gmail' in germany because someone owned the trademark 'g-mail ... und die post geht richtig ab' (or something similar). So the big guy doesnt always win and an exclamation mark doesnt make a difference. So if you feel like it, go for it. You might win. (I don't know if the word go is to common to count as a trademark, though).

But its not so common in the programming language domain.

I'd never heard of OS9 until they got stuck into Apple for releasing Mac OS 9 and commonly referring to it as "OS 9". And I haven't heard of OS9 since, either.

On the one hand, it's kind of hard to claim two letters.

On the other hand, Rob, Ken, et. al. really could have done a little Googling around before they chose to name their language after an existing language, no matter how obscure.

It strikes me as a little bit evil not to capitulate, particularly if the motivation not to do so is "this would really hurt our project so screw off little math guy" as opposed to "we think we are right and this name is fair game."

If the Google team thinks this is a non-issue, I'd like to hear some logic.

I dunno, I've heard of some pretty popular languages that only have one letter in the name.

You know, I take it back.

If C# is fair on top of C, then Go ought to be fair on top of Go!

Well-played :)

I guess I just wonder now why he added the bang at all.

One of the Unix room's Bell labs slogan was "think of a name no-one can market"

"Plan 9 From Bell Labs" being canonical

One is called Go, the other Go!. I don't see the problem (C, C++, C#...) - it is common for programing languages to just differ by one letter in their name.

Except that ! is silent, unlike ++ and #.

Go-bang? (and in this case the question mark is silent)

Is that like Go‽

In which case McCabe may find himself in trouble with Shriekback.

Go Bang works

Is that like "go forth and procreate", to use another euphemism.

The name "forth" is already in use for a programming language.

...and this will GO ON forever, you know.

You could read Go! as "go not" :)

I think its time we stopped with that madness.

Not that I disagree, just saying that the creator of Go! doesn't seem to have a very promising case on his hands.

Except that both C# and C++ are related to C. If Go! and Go are related languages, then the similarity in names is helpful. When the languages are dissimilar, the similarity of names is confusing.

This, I think, is ultimately the point of trademarks. It entirely about "property," it's also about clarity.

> Except that both C# and C++ are related to C.

That is a very questionable claim.

Well, C++ is at least. C# was just trying to piggyback on the success of C languages.

Well namespace clashes are inevitable; In one sense I'd want to say "let the best language win"

But this is an outlier case because the "owners" are polar opposites in both the age of the language and who they are. Google would be polite to change names but I wouldn't be surprised if they dont.

Will google be fair to the fmccabe?

Google will likely claim that Go! and Go are different names for a programming language much as C and C# are.

That's not what their search engine tell me.

Maybe this incident could lead to better recognition of the term "Go!" after all.

I'm asking myself that question, and I really don't know what to expect from Google.

It's interesting to see what happens when namespaces clash in real life.

My guess is the second declaration overrides the first.

This right on the heels of Clo[js]ure ...

Hey, Google, you can't have all the good names, you know.

That's what the trademark system is for. If you create a programming language and don't want someone else to use the same name then register the trademark - yes that costs money (quite a bit for an individual), but then it should to stop people just registering names and squatting them.

Of course "go" is probably too generic/descriptive to be a trademark ...

> That's what the trademark system is for.

Very true. But there's also a place for common courtesy and pragmatism, bypassing legal inefficiencies. Go is really not that great of a name, so there is no loss for Google to change it.

As much as I hate to defend copyright and trademarks, if the creator of go! did not trademark the name, then the responsibility lies with him. If one where to try to avoid the name of every pet project out there, it would be nearly impossible to come up with a name that someone used for a weekend of abandoned code, that was thrown out onto the net. Given that the guy wrote a book on his language, I sincerely hope that he had the forethought to trademark the name.

One does not need to trademark names in US.

Nothing will come of this. There are no legal ramifications for not changing the name and would only confuse people.

Its dickish to not change the name. Its kind of evil. Google isn't supposed to do that. So maybe they'll change it? I would.

You certainly sound like a lawyer, but your profile says you are not.

Why do you think there are no legal ramifications? Same name, same domain... you'd have to be a lawyer to really know if there was a case to be made, right?

It'd be better to do it now and leave this little dude alone than to continue the ambiguity. Google's Go is only a day old, not too much to lose if they change the name now.

Also, maybe math guy has some money, or will find some money, and litigate, as he's already expressed his displeasure at the collision.

I think it's best for everyone if Google just man up and make the change now. In the end it will only generate more publicity for both Gos, and everyone will be happy, and the threat of unpleasant ramifications (including bad PR and possible litigation) vanishes. Fingers crossed that Google will do it, though I doubt they will.

Wouldn't it be great if Google just gave fmccabe a nice pay-day for his trouble of letting go of the name? (Or is this just a can of worms?)

Just commented on the comments page at the original link, but I'll post it here too.

I ran into a similar problem on an open source project I'm working on... we had a namespace collision on a twitter client, both with the name "Bluebird." Their team had a very talented designer, so I offered to change the name of my project in exchange for some artwork from them. I ended up changing the name of my project to "Buzzbird."

Surely there must be some way that Google could make a similar arrangement w/ fmccabe?

Google definitely should've researched this more, and they should probably change the name, but don't forget that this isn't as simple as just typing a new name into a text box. There's a mailing list, a compiler, repository and website names, environment variables, internal references in the code, a keyword in the programming language (which wouldn't have to change, I suppose), supporting programs other than the compiler (pretty printer, documenter, etc.), and I'm sure plenty of stuff I'm forgetting. Something as simple as a name change probably means weeks or work and almost certainly lost momentum.

This is certainly having a positive effect for Mccabe, free publicity. I had never heard of his Go! language... til now.

If only they'd picked a name that was easier to Google, they would have found this precursor.

If McCabe's selling a book based on his language, there's a reasonable case to be made he has a commercial trademark in "Go!" for a programming language.

Maybe Google can get McCabe's permission to call their language 'Go2'. Or perhaps "Went". As in, "the name 'Go' got up and 'Went'.".

Or 'Going'. Except they should say it rhymes with 'Boing', so that it's not the present participle of the trademarked 'go'. As in, "GOing Is Not Go!"

or they could call it 'gone'

i think this is an interesting submission, but the title is not very hacker news-ish. "Please don't do things to make titles stand out, like using uppercase or exclamation points, or adding a parenthetical remark saying how great an article is."

http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

(this is at least the fourth or fifth time i'm calling somebody on a title in as many weeks. i'm not crazy about being the news.yc scold. but every one of those titles did indeed get changed to something more neutral by the submitter or the editors, so i think i'm within community guidelines here.)

I agree, and almost flagged it for the "OOHHHH SNAP". I wish there was a 'flag/review headline only' option.

I don't know if association with 'goto' is the best idea for a programming language.

I like 'Stop'. They could call their tutorial 'Stop Programming!'

it would definitely need a "hammer_time" command.

Google should change the name from "Go" to "Goo". Problem solved...

not quite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goo_(programming_language)

They can just keep adding O's until they have something unique (;

Nice name for a language, I also like their home page http://people.csail.mit.edu/jrb/goo/

It's a very beautiful Lisp dialect. Study it.

I would be more likely to study a language that has a sensible name, has a web site that doesn't hurt your eyes and has a manual that isn't "One of the worst manuals I've ever seen in my life", http://c2.com/cgi/wiki$?GooLanguage.

It's not worse than Arc in that regard. Goo broke a lot of conventions, yes, but if you know your way around Dylan, Self, and Scheme, you will get Goo fairly easily.

No trademark filed => not their problem.

Strictly speaking, no registration is required for trademark protection in the U.S. - you simply need to have used the mark.

Registration is required to bring suit in Federal court, to prevent infringement from imported goods, to claim protection internationally, and to gain presumption of exclusive ownership nationwide.

You can also use the (TM) symbol to assert your claim on the mark without having registered it.

From the USPTO website:

Is registration of my mark required?

No. You can establish rights in a mark based on legitimate use of the mark.

Me thinks this whole discussion is going to last about as long as today's morning coffee in Disney's legal department.

They should have google this name before choosing it.

This is a classic case of barefoot shoemaker.

They should have google this name before choosing it.

Try a google search for "go" and let us know if you find anything relevant.

Found in Page 2. It perhaps it was on Page 1 before Google released 'Go'.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=programming+languag...

No. Google is very good at putting new things temporarily higher in the results. Just because it's #2 today doesn't mean it was #1 yesterday. It could easily have been #2147483647 before, but this spurt of activity creates mentions and links that has propelled it into the top of the results.

One of the papers on it is still at the top of the second page of Google search results for "go programming language" as I write this, despite the huge numbers of new pages about Google's on offering.

They could probably just write him a check?

Suggestions for Google's "go":

Went Gone Don't Go Goo Get there

I think lango would be a great name and I am hereby to give away to google any copyrights for the name.

And if there's ever a framework they can call it dlango.

You think you have "copyright" of it because you just typed the word?

that's how copyright works

Then why don't you take a few minutes to write every five-letter combination possible and thereby secure the ownership of those names?

because one important difference between judges and compilers is, judges are generally clever enough to screen out technically correct exploitations of egregious edge cases

you can't copyright single words.

They should call it GooGo

Possibly even Gle pronounced "Go"?

Or Gle.

Who edited out the "OOHHH SNAP!" from my title? ಠ_ಠ

Hi. I noticed you also posted this on Reddit. While the old title may actually have a positive effect on the story's popularity there, it has the reverse effect here. As you can see in the guidelines (http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), putting capitals in the title is frowned upon. Moderators routinely fix submissions in this way, so it's nothing personal.

Plus, your edit resulted in two tweets from the newsbot - win!

Just the normal human tendency, weak people taking stand against big guy, to prove their existance. There is no point arguing, nor do i believe google did something evil. They just did a silly mistake and are being bashed more than their share, a bit unfair, not to mention an unknown guy with his unknown language is getting free publicity.

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