The evolution of dog breeds | Hacker News Reader

The evolution of dog breeds

priceonomics.com

79 pointsigonvalue32 comments

Reading through this, I was kind of annoyed that the author hinted at the fact that today's English bull dog was a bull baiter ("But they didn’t quite look like the jowly little gremlins waddling around the world today. Can you imagine any bulldog you’ve ever met taking on a bull?"). While in fact bull dogs were much more like today's American bull dogs. Further down, there's a picture of an English bulldog with the caption "An American bulldog named 'Spike'."[1]

I find it curious that an article about dog breeds incorrectly identifies an English bulldog as an American bulldog. A simple google search of the two breeds shows the very clear differences.

1. https://www.flickr.com/photos/cmichel67/13829224774/in/photo...

Strange that he mentions a 101 Dalmatians film in 1985. I can't remember that and wikipedia knows nothing about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Hundred_and_One_Dalmatians...

The 1961 film was actually rereleased in 1979. That fits better with my childhood memories. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSF3qlTNbOA

It says it on the wiki for the actual movie.

>It was re-issued to cinemas four times: in 1969, 1979, 1985 and 1991.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Hundred_and_One_Dalmatians

The more recent Disney version was released in 1996. I have no idea how they got to 1985.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0115433/?ref_=nv_sr_1

In some breeds you will still find breeders who, although they are breeding AKC registered dogs, are breeding for function rather than form. Retrievers are the obvious example - there are hunters who are using those dogs for their original purpose still and breeders looking to satisfy them. Unfortunately, in some breeds there is a divergence between "show lines" and "working lines", and a lot of judges are looking for traits that aren't really present in the "working lines" or much more exaggerated in the "show lines". This isn't so much a problem in the breed that I'm in - the dogs are bred just as much to excel in the lure coursing field these days (and, in Russia at least, for running down actual rabbits and other small game) as they are for the show ring. It might be that the breed's relative unpopularity is in some ways an asset - it's not found in either the top 10 or the bottom 50 breeds. Probably because keeping these dogs is not for the faint of heart.

Side note: the article contains quite a few language mistakes, mostly missing small words like "of" or "for":

>This is probably a side effect over breeding

>you can find plenty of dogs that were simply disappeared economic reasons

These mistakes are very easy to miss while scanning an article fast, as I (and presumably many other people) are nowadays wont to do with the enormous overload of information on the net.

I would not be surprised if these words would much less used in the middle-term future.

There's a v amusing sketch about Crufts and the rise of the dog show by John Finnemore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG0BGqOKer8

I've tried to talk friends out of getting problem breeds such as bulldogs, considering so many dogs are left in shelters, but to no avail. To breed an animal to extinction for fashion is an extremely odd thing to do, when you think about it...

Dog breeds are a weird artifact. I don't view it as a bad thing that so many of these human-created breeds are going "extinct". Actually, they go pseudoextinct. The animals do fine, they interbreed with the general canine population and their descendants are mutts. If you've ever met a dog, they're quite OK with that. They have no concept of "breed" as far as we can tell and, if they do, they probably find mixed-breed animals more attractive (not that dogs are selective in that regard). We should be OK with it, too. Mutts live 2-3 years longer and are, unless you're after a specific aesthetic or breed profile, generally better dogs.

I wouldn't mind, honestly, if the practice of breeding animals for profit went extinct. We have too many good animals who are killed in shelters for no good reason. (We should stop that too, preferring TNR, but one issue at a time.) That's far more heartbreaking than the possibility that some weird-looking creature that wouldn't exist in nature and requires almost cruel human interventions (see: English Bulldogs, who now require C-sections) will not have descendants, or will have descendants of a more hybrid nature (pseudoextinction).

I think that dog breed is such a thing because of confirmation bias. So many people say, "oh, I got a French Bulldog and she's the sweetest thing ever" or "my Golden is smarter than I am" and I'm sure that they do have great dogs... but I have awesome cats and they're just regular mutt cats. As long as the animal is properly socialized, mixed-breed is best if you're just looking for a good pet.

Dog breeding and cat breeding are two very different things. Sure, you'll find cat breed loyalists, but nowhere near the numbers you'll find with dog breed enthusiasts. Most people are fine locating a cute domestic long/short hair cat and adopting it. People are much pickier with dogs. Sometimes for good reasons, sometimes for superficial and arbitrary reasons.

People tend to have stronger bonds with dogs and different dog breeds behave much differently. If you want a smart, energetic dog, and enjoy doing things like agility, you're probably going to go after a herding group dog rather than a bulldog. But that herding dog probably isn't going to make a great pet around children, so if you want a family dog, maybe you're going to go after a calmer breed like a Golden.

And for people who use dogs for jobs (which is a big reason breeding came to be and still exist), the breeds excel at whatever they're meant to do. Sport dogs for hunting, herding dogs for working livestock, terriers for chasing out vermin, etc.

While I largely agree with you that commercial breeding is far too rampant, there is some value in maintaining breeds. One positive side effect is that you can still get rescue mutts that exhibit positive qualities of breeds while also being much healthier than if it were a purebred. For example, I used to have a mixed breed dog that had clear herding blood and she did great in agility, learning tricks, etc. but didn't have the genetic issues that many Border Collies, Australian shepherds, etc. have.

Unfortunately, you're right in that people choose breeds for illogical reasons. For any dog breed, it's very easy to find their strengths and weaknesses online and find a breed that's actually a good fit. Instead, people pick a breed because they like the way they look or because they had good memories of a dog in that breed. Breed-based rescues always have dogs that are dropped off because the family didn't properly research the dog and when the dog exhibited traits that could be fully predicted by doing research (e.g. their Aussie herded and knocked over their toddlers or nipped their ankles).

People tend to have stronger bonds with dogs

I disagree. But I'm a cat person, so you're probably not surprised. The bond is different but neither is superior. That said, I'm strongly against novelty pets (birds, snakes, tigers). I think it's dangerous and stupid, and most of these animals either never bond, like snakes, or are poorly suited to typical pet conditions, like parrots (who get depressed in a cage) and wild/big cats. Cats and dogs make great pets and most animals don't.

I agree with the rest of what you're saying.

My parents have parrots, and I lived with them for four years. Really nice pets, very clever, and they can show some affection. It's true that they can get depressed in a cage, but in my case they can fly freely in the house, and they have an aviary for them in the garden that is connected to the house by a window.

It's interesting when you look at hunting dogs in my country.

People hunting deer will favour breeds like the German Shorthaired Pointer or Vizsla for their particular hunting characteristics suitable for hunting deer in thick bush, while pig hunters will tend to use mongrels who have been tested in the field and excel at one of the roles needed in a pig hunting pack - finders, bailers and holders.

I'm not sure which approach is better in working dogs, the aristocracy or the meritocracy.

The value of a breeder may lie less in the breed and more in the care shown to the animal: genetic tests to avoid heritable conditions (eg hip dysplasia, degenerative myelopathy), socialization, and simply that every human a well bred dog has met has been awesome to them. I'm on my second rescue, and there was a years-long process to get him to like humans. He was scared even of my ski friends we saw every weekend. And the first rescue dog came with medical issues that ended up costing me $15k (it was worth every penny, but I wish we hadn't gone through that.)

Plus it's worth understanding how an animal will behave; compare the activity requirements of a great dane that is relatively easy to wear out vs a border collie that requires hours a day of work. The second rescue was a cattle dog mix and needs 20 minutes of frisbee in the afternoon and a vigorous hour in the dog park every day to wear out, plus the usual walks.

Not every dog can be rescued. There are some dogs that simply have a bad temperament and will never be completely safe. Temperament in dogs is a heritable trait, and selecting a dog from a conscientious breeder who has selected the parents for breeding based on known good temperament and health testing (typically through the OFA program) including genetic testing, makes for a puppy with a predictable temperament and (if the OFA health testing program is followed) a much lower risk of heart, thyroid, vision, and joint problems, as well as genetic disorders, than selecting a dog from a shelter at random.

Not every dog can be rescued. There are some dogs that simply have a bad temperament and will never be completely safe.

Agreed. No-kill actually means "90+ percent live release" because some animals are so sick (physically or mentally) that euthanasia is the humane thing to do.

Temperament in dogs is a heritable trait, and selecting a dog from a conscientious breeder [...] than selecting a dog from a shelter at random.

Perhaps, if only because of the pernicious effect of the puppy mills. 99 percent of shelter cats are mutts and just fine. I'd guess that in terms of average health and temperament, the order is random/natural-bred mutts > well-bred pedigree > puppy/kitty mill animals.

I'd guess that in terms of average health and temperament, the order is random/natural-bred mutts > well-bred pedigree > puppy/kitty mill animals.

Breeders will always put health and temperament first. If they don't, they're a mill. A nice pedigree and a super healthy dog are not mutually exclusive.

I had a French Bulldog, and she was indeed the sweetest thing ever. (Still is, in fact, but she lives in California due to a set of complicated circumstances.)

I have never known another dog who was in such need of being in constant physical contact with me. Admittedly, part of it probably had to do with her being a rescue, but still: Frenchies are extraordinarily affectionate.

That said, I would never buy one from a breeder. The fact that bulldogs are so inbred that they require artificial insemination and c-sections to reproduce says that it's time those breeds go extinct. If I had the opportunity (and the proper time) to get another rescue Frenchie, though, I'd do it again in a heartbeat

For your viewing pleasure, my little girl, Moxie:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8104303829/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8292373427/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8403846731/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8590965099/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8609317262/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8658684108/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8776664388/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/8773349885/in/s...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/aaronbrethorst/10078258256/in/...

Have you considered Boston Terriers?

A) No c-section to procreate B) Same behaviors (need for affection, size, general behavior) C) Squishy jowly cuteness. Not quite as wide bodied. Many Bostons are built like grey hounds with a chihuahua size...

We bought a boston terrier from a breeder who gave us one she saw was docile and good for a family.

Honestly, that's what's missing from the adoption equation. Not physical characteristics (though I wanted a small dog that wouldn't trample and intimidate my 6 year old) but judgement from the breeder about whether the pet is suitable for your situation.

That's actually incorrect. I'm trying to find better links, but Boston Terriers frequently require c-sections for birth. "Three breeds were singled out as having caesarian rates of over eighty per cent – the French Bulldog at 81.3%, the Bulldog at 86.1% and the Boston Terrier at a remarkable 92.3%" [1].

Edit: Here's a more trust worthy source (and probably the source of info from the first link): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20136998

1. http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/peterwedderburn/9405067/wh...

For whatever reason Boston Terriers don't appeal to me nearly as much as Frenchies. That said, if and when I get another dog, I'll definitely look into that breed. I'd almost certainly want to adopt another rescue, though.

While absolutely adorable, French Bulldogs are among the most expensive dogs to care for, health-wise. They're also more expensive to purchase because of their more complicated birth.

Hence the reason I'd only get a rescue.

Your photos of Moxie brightened my day a little. Thanks!

Shameless self promotion, but if you like French bulldogs, we've got a ton to look at on Pack - http://packdog.com/breed/french-bulldog :)

Damn, it's the sweetest little thing!

Thanks, glad you liked them! :)

Is that dog a registered pedigree?

Its hard to tie the longevity of dogs to perceived aesthetic deformation. For example, the miniature poodle (14.8 years) lives almost twice as long as a Great Dane (8.4 years). [1]

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aging_in_dogs

I heard from several vets I talked to that the older "giant" breeds typically have some genetic artifacts associated with increasing their size. Hip dyplasia, for example ( http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hip_dysplasia_(canine) ).

It's amazing more breeds don't have congenital issues, given up until recently the breeding process was performed entirely without genetic testing.

PIT OF DESPAIR, Birmingham, Tuesday (UNN) — A South Somerset Atrocity Terrier named Soberhill Black Medik Markenbrow Beatrice Vraibleu has beaten 25,000 canine rivals to win Best of Show at this year's Crufts in Birmingham.

The event, held in the Gladiator Pit at Birmingham's National Exhibition Centre, attracted more than 143,000 freak-show ghouls and failed concentration camp doctors.

Soberhill Black Medik Markenbrow Beatrice Vraibleu is owned by top breeder Diana Mosley-Mengele, 48, of Gloucestershire. "It is unbelievable. This dog has done so well. It is the greatest accolade you could wish for. We may have to think about retiring him now because there is nothing left for him to do. Of course, we can't breed from him, because the genitalia have been entirely bred out of the line in order to allow the extra legs to grow in."

Second place went to a one-year-old pit bull terrier called Thatcher, who, in a virtuoso display of the breed's skills, ate one of the judges.

Dog breeding in the UK is concerned with every detail of a dog's appearance. "The perpetual haemophiliac bleeding from the snout must trickle along approved lines," said Miss Mosley-Mengele. "In addition, the lifelong whimperings of pain must be pitched between 3000 and 5000 Hertz. I had to drown four bags of culls on this point in the last month alone."

Other events in the Arena yesterday included the Flyball Team semi finals and finals, the Agility International Invitational and a parade of Obedience winners. Particularly good showing in the Obedience trials came from those dogs who helped in corraling their fellow canines and assisted their owners in the vital genetic and surgical work needed to further the show-dog hobby.

Victoria Stilwell, star of the TV show Cull The Unterhünd, set a few hearts aflutter around the show whilst filming a special episode of the popular programme and personally chopping up bloody hunks of cull to throw to the aspiring Crufts entrants.

Crufts was established in Argentina in 1946 by public-spirited recent German immigrants who felt their skills and hobbies were no longer welcome in their homeland. This year's event has been overshadowed by accusations that the show is cruel, with animal charities and the International Criminal Court in the Hague expressing their concerns. Show organiser the Kennel Club is putting measures in place to deal with the problem, starting with kidnapping PETA activists and mincing them for dog food.

PICTURE: Soberhill Black Medik Markenbrow Beatrice Vraibleu, the South Somerset Atrocity Terrier who won this year's Crufts. Note the exquisite and much-prized ulceration patterns on the flank.

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/UnNews:Crippled_diseased_...

Linking animal cruelty to the holocaust? Really?

I'm desperately trying to come up with an anecdote that combines DEA raids that begin with canine murder, dog insurance, swatting, gated communities, Michael Picket of the secret service and Aaron Swartz fame, and stem cell research.

I'm usually good at this but the requisite savoir faire eludes me.

*mutt comment. Of course its downvoted./

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