The Snake That’s Eating Florida | Hacker News Reader

The Snake That’s Eating Florida

nytimes.com

38 pointsantr56 comments

Like many animals previously unknown north of the Equator, the Burmese python arrived through the pet trade.

...but Burma is north of the Equator...

One could be generous to the author and say that he just spotted Java on the Wikipedia map[0] of the Burmese python's range. Being the smartass I am, I tried finding if the first discovery of the Burmese python was south of the equator to give the author more credit. Nothing but invasive species reports for Florida as far as the eye can see, at least on Google.

Nonetheless, poor fact checking.

[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burmese_python#/media/File:Pyth...

I understand the comment on poor fact checking but don't get why it is voted all the way to the top since it takes away the focus on the message to some extent.

This is a serious problem with no apparent solutions. Even Everglades apex predators, the alligators are unable to deal with the issue. A fight between a python and an alligator is fatal to both.

http://science.time.com/2012/01/31/invaders-how-burmese-pyth...

TLDR quote from the article: As per study in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, the increase of the python population from just a few to perhaps a few thousand has been connected to declines of several native mammals. According to the study, observations of raccoons have declined 93 percent, bobcats by 87 percent, and possums by 98.9 percent.

It's pretty clear we need to eat these animals:

LionFish, Asian Carp, Burmese Python (any Python really) - are all meats that are well worthy of the table. We need to stop thinking of them as pests (and as pets, for that matter) and start thinking of them as resources to harvest.

i applaud this idea - snake is a delicacy in many parts of the world. but i found this:

http://news.discovery.com/earth/invasives-hunting-dining-fas...

Python skins can be sold, but Novak recommends against eating the meat. Research found some pythons in the Everglades contained high levels of mercury, she said

Honest question: Have you ever eaten Asian Carp? It might be worthy of "the table" but as an occasional recreational fisherman, it's known simply as an invasive species and only for eating by the poorest among society. The joke is to put forward a really intricate recipe where a fillet of carp is put on a plank of wood, seasoned, cooked, and then after a bit of time, throw away the fish and eat the plank.

I mean, if you really enjoy eating carp, great, but around here, they are simply pests. Rough fish. Trash fish. Basically the perfect target for bowfishing...just sayin'

Carp is delicious. As is eel. As is Catfish. It's all in the prep. The thing is, food items move in and out of acceptable fashion according cultural & historical context - it's not always to do with taste.

Read up on the history of Atlantic Cod or Maine Lobster and you'll see that at one time these delicacies were also once considered vermin, fit for the dogs and not for the table.

What we have to do is secure a better understanding of what we are doing when we categorise animals. Simply calling them 'pests' removes invasive animals from the very viable option of hunting and eating them.

You can eat them and you may even like them...but they are pests in the sense that they (at least Python and Lion Fish) are destroying South Florida's ecological balance. Farm them all you want for personal or commercial gain, but the problem is their introduction to natural habitats where they have no natural predators.

Thanks Will. I do agree with you - they are destructive and unfortunate introduction to the native eco-system. My argument is not that eating them is some sort of boon, but that we should eat them as a means of controlling their population. And the social precursor necessary to doing that is to categorically move them from 'pest' and into 'product'

Luckily, both crocodiles and tigers eat pythons, so this problem should be easily solved.

I'm pretty sure neither of those animals live in Florida. We definitely have alligators, I'm not so sure about crocodiles.

Actually the southern half of Florida does have some Crocodiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_crocodile

Ran into one when I was a kid and well I have a very firm imprint that they in fact do live there.

Well, we do have the American Crocodile[0] whose ranges includes southern Florida. Florida also has Caimans[1], but those are invasive.

[0] - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_crocodile

[1] - http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/managed/american-crocodile...

The American crocodile is mostly found in Central America and the Caribbean, but also exists in the Everglades. I'm pretty sure it is an endangered species.

Then you need cane toads to "manage" the crocs :)

Think you need to see this:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/10/1006_051006_...

Reliance on crocodilians may not turn out the way one hoped

As soon as someone releases their pet tigers into the Florida wilds we'll be safe.

I went camping in the south everglades this winter and we were told that you don't need to worry about raccoons invading the campsite. Mostly because they are all gone due to the snakes. You now have to deal with vultures at campsites.

you mean people actually go camping in those areas ?? How do you equip yourself ?

I don't know about the Everglades, but in the Okefenokee Swamp, you canoe around the waters and sleep on raised platforms. Well, you lie in your sleeping bag while the gators move around under the platform. It's fun!

http://www.wildlifesouth.com/Camping/CampingChecklist.html

Is that platform in the picture sufficient to keep an alligator from crawling up onto the platform? It seems mighty close to the water for my taste.

and people wonder why I like North Dakota.....

Are the alligators dangerous while canoeing though? Can they topple the boat or what if you fall out?

I'm sure they could topple a canoe, and I wouldn't go swimming with them on purpose. But they really do tend to shy away from human confrontation. I've heard there hasn't been a single fatal attack in the Wildlife Refuge.

For the most part, they seem to leave you alone if you leave them alone. I wouldn't say I ever got comfortable with them on my trip, but I stopped being terrified. Heh.

That said, they're intimidating nonetheless, and worthy of a healthy respect. And their growling is unsettling.

>And their growling is unsettling.

Not many people know/understand Alligators actually growl. It is a unsettling sound indeed, in my experience they growl because you have stumbled upon a nest which does make them very aggressive.

My favorite camping spot in Florida was actually surrounded by gators and you could hear them talk all night long. It was the place they brought all the central Florida nuisance gators to live.

Never once had an incident or even saw a gator near our camp ground. We would have over 600 Boy Scouts there and never a problem.

Certainly the Pythons are wrecking havoc on Florida's natural ecological balance, but generally Pythons are not a direct danger to humans. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule, like the story of the 2 year old in the article, but that was added because it fit the tone of the article. The fact is Florida's indigenous snake population is more dangerous to humans by orders of magnitude; including, Coral Snakes, water moccasins/cottonmouths, and various rattle snakes.

Also, wanted to add that it was good the article mentioned other invasive species, but in particular lion fish happen to be another that is devastating South Florida. Its really a shame because both the python and lion fish problems are a result of lazy and ignorant people releasing their pets. Sadly, there isn't a good solution to either problem, bounty programs and public policy (with lots of funding) have not helped. Perhaps one day a big enough freeze will come to South Florida as the article mentions, its not entirely uncommon for a cold front to hit South Florida and to see Cuban Anoles (another invasive species) start falling out of trees in a hypothermic state, but they normally snap out of it in a few days. I wish more was discussed about the exact temperatures and effects they might have on the Pythons.

Putting a bounty on pests is the textbook example of of perverse incenives that encourages people to make the problem worse.

Certainly a bounty program could make problems worse, in the sense of potential, but there is zero evidence of that in the Python/Everglades situation. For starters everything is public record, there were about 1,600 licensed registrants and they killed less than <100 snakes. At the time it probably worked out to less than $1/participant, in response the Florida Wildlife Commission has removed the bounty and instead permits the selling of the skin and meat. Odds are the this article itself produces more revenue than hunting the Pythons, but again I don't think anyone would say ad revenue from these stories incentives the media to make the problem worse.

> Last month, the prohibition was extended to four other species: reticulated pythons, DeSchauensee’s anacondas, green anacondas and Beni anacondas. (Boa constrictors, an important component of the pet snake trade, were spared a ban.) Not surprisingly, reptile sellers and breeders are not happy with the restrictions, with slippery slopesters among them warning that all kinds of animals, including more familiar household pets, could become the next government target.

It's a sad state of affairs when the federal government has to step in and play parent. Really is a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch. Though, i was hoping more would be done than add a few more names to a list. The article kind of ended with a tone of 'that's it, nothing more to report', when there's clearly still a problem.

> It's a sad state of affairs when the federal government has to step in and play parent

I suppose one could make that argument, but I think it's pretty suitable given the damage that could be done by those "few bad apples" releasing their pets in the wild. To take that argument further, should the government not deal with industrial runoff? Only a few bad apples. How about NFA firearms? Sure, most of my gun owning friends are great, responsible folks, but those "few bad apples" could sure cause a ruckus with automatic firearms.

The government can and should step in and take action to solve a big problem like this. There have always been, and always will be bad apples to spoil the bunch for the rest of us.

a case of a few bad apples spoiling the whole bunch

If people can do something selfish that causes problems for others, a small fraction of them will. If the problem is big and self-replicating enough, you end up with this.

I did not hear about the Burmese python strangling the 2 year-old...

As a father of a 20 month old, this might be the most traumatized I've ever been by news story.

Edit: Thanks a ton for the links to the other dead kid stories.

You missed all the stories about toddlers killed by dogs?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_Unite...

4.5 - 4.7 million people are bitten by dogs each year? Yikes. Need to reconsider my reaction to my 2 YO's fear of dogs.

Surely some of those bites are either provoked or the dog biting a family member, that number is just amazing.

True, but there are 7 billionish people, so that's only about one person in 2000.

You probably don't want to read this: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/snake-kills-2-n-...

I encourage tourists to buy snakeskin products when they are visiting Florida. Hunters are encouraged to take these snakes and there's quite a market for products made from them.

They could make things a bit easier and allow anyone to catch them. Roll on the python restaurants and handbag emporia.

At the moment:

"Qualified applicants may apply for an interim permit that allows for removal of Burmese pythons and other conditional reptiles from three WMAs: Everglades and Francis S. Taylor WMA, Holey Land WMA, and Rotenberger WMA. This permit does not allow access to properties managed by the South Florida Water Management District."

so can we grind them up and make dog food out of them? Surely there can be some commercial use of them, if not pay a bounty to be rid of them.

Whacking Day! Seriously though, a dollar bounty per head would probably promote some creativity in dealing with the problem.

People would start breeding them...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect

I admit that a dollar might not be enough to encourage breeding. But I doubt it would be enough incentive for hunting either. AFAIK they are hard to spot...

I don't think that would happen in the US, its just too little money for a full time job and the neighbors would notice.

The article mentions:

> A couple of years ago, they organized a Python Challenge, a come-one, come-all snake hunt on state land near Everglades National Park. It put barely a dent in the python population; no more than a few dozen of them were captured. ... “scientists have not found any way of eradicating invasive constrictor snakes once they become established in the wild.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-01-10/killing-py... estimates that it takes 92 hours to find and kill a snake. At $5/hour, assuming under minimum wage, that's ~$500 per snake. Even if they are at the high-end size of 250 pounds/snake, that's $2/pound for the total carcass. More likely they will be smaller, and not all of the snake can be used for dog food.

According to http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=costfactors , high quality dog food is under $1/pound. According to http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine-archive/2011/aug... from 4 years ago:

> At the higher end of the price range was a 4.5-pound bag of Purina Chef Michael's Rotisserie Chicken flavor, at PetSmart for $2.22 a pound

Therefore, it's not economical by far to make dog food from them. The market does not appear to be big enough.

It would be different if the Pythons tasted like, or produced something like, caviar or truffles. But they don't.

How much would a skin fetch on the market?

Next startup bootcamp thing should have a homework project on building a dogfood-and-snakeskin-boot-producing snake hunting robot :)

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20509720 says:

>The snake-skin business is extremely lucrative according to this report, which estimates that half a million python skins are exported annually from South East Asia in a trade worth $1bn (£625m) a year. ...

That's an upper bound of $2,000 per skin across the entire sales chain.

> The nature of the trade is such that there is a strong financial incentive all along the supply chain to use illegal snakes. A skin that a villager in Indonesia might sell for $30 (£19) will end up as a bag in fashion boutiques in France or Italy selling for $15,000 (£9,300). The highest demand is for skins between three and four metres long.

It does not seem the market would bear the cost to eradicate Florida snakes, given the high overhead of finding a snake. It's of course possible to increase the market demand. As the article suggests, that would have world-wide consequences.

Even if there were a marketing program to promote "ecological Everglades Python skin", there would need to be a verification program that illegal snakes weren't getting into the supply chain, since there would be a strong economic incentive to buy snakes in S.E. Asia for $100 and sell them in the US for $1,000.

You can always create a startup making snake oil ;)

Lots of competition in that field though :)

>...estimates that it takes 92 hours to find and kill a snake.

Found the problem. Make it quicker to find them, or better yet, have them come to you.

I don't understand why folks would want these as a pet if you know how big they grow, and what their impact on the environment is.

searching google for predators of burmese pythons came back with this

Because of its large size, adult Burmese pythons have few predators, with alligators and humans being the exceptions. They prey upon native species and may reduce their populations locally. Research is underway to ascertain the impacts pythons have on native mammal species.

I am struggling to think of ways you could limit the numbers on such an elusive animal

The Times article mentions that they had a month long hunt where they spent a few thousand dollars.

They could try offering bounties and spend millions of dollars. I guess a potential downside of that is damage caused by aggressive/careless hunters.

Maybe the bounties could be tied to body cam footage proving the hunt was responsible or something.

this could also be a great way to employ and feed people in need if they weren't averse to the idea.

I don't know how much this would change, but I keep reading about having teams of volunteers "capture and remove" pythons. Which I just don't understand. It's an invasive species. We outright kill almost every other invasive species. We cull overpopulated native species. Surely it's far more time-consuming to capture and remove vs. kill the pythons.

If the problem is so serious, why isn't it being attacked the same way as any other invasive species problem?

This article sounds like the state has embraced a do kill policy:

http://tbo.com/news/florida-wont-repeat-public-python-hunt-n...

This scares the shit out of me.

If you watch the video, there is appropriately a toilet snake. I think this fits here somehow.

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