In praise of the mechanical keyboard | Hacker News Reader

In praise of the mechanical keyboard

fusion.net

45 pointsjgrahamc60 comments

> The best thing about typing on a mechanical keyboard, by far, is the sound. The click-clack-click-clack is so familiar, and so soothing ...

Maybe it's soothing for the person hammering away on their mechanical keyboard, but for anyone unfortunate enough to share an office with said person it's excruciating. I really don't get why the whole noisy-keyboard-in-a-shared-office never gets any play when this is discussed. Am I just oversensitive to this?

The problem is that you're in a shared office. It's a wonder to me that people get anything done in that kind of environment. Too many distractions and interruptions, plus the pervasive background anxiety of being watched all the time. I don't think I could do it.

> I really don't get why the whole noisy-keyboard-in-a-shared-office never gets any play when this is discussed.

If it is a problem there is simple solution - private office, remote office or I fire the company. Simple. Effective. And why would anyone want to share office - I have no idea.

It's very good that you're in the sort of position where you can make a stand on that sort of thing - but I'm not quite there myself. In any case I do like a shared space ("office" was maybe incorrect in my original comment) but for people to be productive everyone needs to be just a little bit more considerate than if they had their own office.

You're not over-sensitive. I love mechanical keyboards but only use at home because it's obviously disruptive to colleagues in the office.

I've been using MX clear switches for a few weeks now in my open office. Before starting a routine of using it in the office I asked everyone in my immediate area to be very open about telling me if the noise bothered them. I haven't had any complaints yet.

Both you and your parent post are very considerate people, and your colleagues are lucky :)

Yeah, it is still a big deal in a lot of environments (including home, making your signification other want to kill you is never good).

Years ago I switched from Cherry to Topre when that was a fancy import-only thing. Now, you can get Topre all over the place. I use the Novatouch TKL currently with dampeners (which come right in the box) -- which is office friendly, has MX compatible stems and is just an all around awesome keyboard.

We've got two mechanical keyboards in our office, but everybody is wearing headphones or talking on the phone anyways. Up until a few years ago office computers were noisy, this has recently changed with laptops being good enough and "silent" pc cases.

But yeah, I've been typing on cherry black switches for a decade now, so cherry blue switches still sound loud to me.

I've used a mechanical for a couple years in a cubicle environment, without complaint. It helps that I use Cherry Browns or Reds and trained myself to type without bottoming out much. It's not especially loud that way.

Typing like that increased my typing speed by about 20wpm, and eliminated some soreness I was starting to develop in my finger joints.

> The best thing about typing on a mechanical keyboard, by far, is the sound.

The satisfaction for the sound is most likely a result of the tactile feedback. The 'clackiest' switches tend to also have the most pronounced tactile feedback. Pinning it to sounds is misrepresenting the advantages of mechanical keyboards and makes them sound like a novelty (which they are definitely not).

The satisfaction of mechanical keyboards comes from the feedback of knowing when the key has been pressed: enthusiasts claim (and I agree) that bottoming out keys is tiring for your fingers. The tactile response helps build muscle memory toward this goal.

One of the most sought after switches (Cherry MX Clear) are evidence of this: they are almost silent but have a strong tactile response.

> I’m not sure how my Das Keyboard 4 stacks up against the competition.

For a typist (or programmer) the switch is the most important feature of a keyboard. A Cherry MX Brown feels the same no matter which keyboard it is featured on - the only discerning feature on keyboards is their build and operational features (such as NKRO on gaming keyboards).

One final point: it might be a better idea to stick to a single type of switch everywhere. Mechanical keyboards are about building muscle memory - having different switches (which have different activation forces) probably works against you building it. I the long run your muscles will learn, but you will hit the plateau faster if you stick to one switch.

> The satisfaction for the sound is most likely a result of the tactile feedback.

Obviously this is deeply subjective, but I have to provide a counter-example. I have built several keyboards with Cherry blue switches and several with Cherry clear switches, but even though the Clears have a more pronounced tactile bump and stronger springs than the blues, the blues are much more satisfying for me to type on.

Of course it's not practical to use blues in a shared space, so clears are a great choice there.

> For a typist (or programmer) the switch is the most important feature of a keyboard.

This is true of conventional layouts, but there are several designs that feature improved staggering arrangements (vertical staggering instead of horizontal) or modifiers on the thumbs instead of the pinkies; both of these can contribute to significant improvements in comfort.

Agreed on multiple points, but especially the muscle memory. Years ago I had a board with Cherry MX Reds, acquired in Japan when they were still almost unknown on any consumer models. Felt like a huge accomplishment in a keyboard geek pissing contest to say I had the board, but it wasn't useful in practice because I was so used to my MX Browns that shifting to Reds, even after a week of use, resulted in this huge increase of typos, an an overall discomforting feeling of uncertainty with the tool I was trying to use. I eventually gifted the board to a friend who had never owned a mechanical keyboard.

I still type on MX Browns to this day, but the next board I buy will definitely have MX Clears (or who knows, maybe I'll splurge on something Topre).

I've never been one for the sound, though. Distracting when I use one, and outright raises my blood pressure when it's someone else.

> I was so used to my MX Browns that shifting to Reds, even after a week of use, resulted in this huge increase of typos

I also erroneously purchased a red keyboard. A coworker now uses it. The reason is likely that reds have NO tactile response, but medium sound.

Cherry Red switches are designed for gaming. Most of the time with games, you hold the key all the way down for a while instead of tapping on it and releasing it as soon as it actuates. So they're really not intended for typists.

(Because of this they actually make great modifier keys even for typists though, because modifier keys aren't meant to be tapped and released either, so they don't benefit from a tactile response.)

The reason that red switches are popular with (some) gamers is that they can be pulsed quickly right at the actuation point with very little rebound between presses.

The tactile switches, on the other hand, have to be allowed to return quite a bit more before they can activate a second time. Whether of silent design or not, they have to unclick before they can click again.

Currently I always use an IBM Model M both at home and the office and I really, really love it.

I always had used Model M but stopped using them when I bought my first Mac because it came with a keyboard and I was lazy to order a PS2-USB converter, somewhat influenced by someone who told me they didn't really work well.

After some years with the Mac keyboard I felt like using again a mechanical keyboard, so I bought a Das Keyboard (Clicky - Blue Switch). I thought I would get the same feeling I had with the Model M, but it was totally different and I did not really like it (it felt a lot cheaper than the Model M, and the noise was similar to preparing pop corn).

Finally I decided to buy PS2-USB converters and was able to rescue the old IBM Model M keyboards I had (more than 20 years old), and I'm not looking back.

However, to use these beasts you need to have your own office (or home office) or else your colleges and loved ones will start complaining a lot.

Buy a Unicomp (pckeyboard.com) if you ever find yourself wanting of model M. I did about a month ago, after being sad at the cost of vintage model M keyboards that I had a small stock of many years ago. In short, the action is exactly the same as I remember, probably owing to using the same mechanism.

Further, I was able to buy a keyboard with dvorak layout (in hardware, not just the keycaps). You can also get them with caps and ctrl swapped and other such tomfoolery.

Only minor complaint is the extruded plastic casing for the keyboard is clearly not the best quality. You can see the way the plastic "flows." That said, I'm sure the thing is bulletproof given its weight. The mechanism itself is clearly of the highest quality, which is what counts.

I invested in a Microsoft ergonomic natural 4000 keyboard. Probably the best thing I ever did, now i have significantly less wrist pain at the end of the day.

It did take a bit of getting used to though, but not that much, only a day or so.

Anyway, I used to have an old mechanical keyboard. Sure it made a nice click, but that's about it, I don't really get the whole "mechanical keyboards are the best" thing

I'm completely with you. I bought a Das Keyboard a couple of years ago that I ended up sending back after a week. It did absolutely nothing for me and had some quality issues anyway. I bought a Natural 4000 keyboard a couple of months ago and quickly became a convert. I've never had any wrist pain issues but it's still just a lot more comfortable than "normal" keyboards, which now feel awkward.

Luckily mechanical switches and ergonomic layouts aren't mutually exclusive. IMO you can get a lot more comfortable than the MS Natural by ditching the archaic row-staggering for a more finger-friendly vertical stagger.

No? Where are mech+ergo in the market? I only find BYOD in hacker sites and perhaps one from a company (don't remember the name), but is smallish and cost to much for me.

BTW, I have used Natural keyboards from the original model!, so the only thing that could me make change is ergo+mech, not just mech...

Quality isn't cheap; this is true across the board. There are a bunch of expensive ergo mech boards though:

* Kinesis Advantage, Maltron (the originals)

* Truly Ergonomic (http://trulyergonomic.com/)

* Infinity Ergodox (https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-ergodox?mode=guest_ope...)

* Atreus (http://atreus.technomancy.us disclaimer: I run this site)

* Ergodox EZ (http://ergodox-ez.com/)

* Keyboard.io (http://keyboard.io still in preproduction)

* Axios (http://axios.io still in preproduction)

Truly Ergonomic look like is the only ready to use, without extra hacking.

Have mechanical keyboards had any innovation since the release of Model M? I mean, if the technology had any potential, you would see it evolve over time, trying to get rid of unwanted properties (reduce weight, dimensions, loudness) while refining the good ones (keypress feel, durability, rollover).

The lack of innovation is a sign of manufacturers catering to the nostalgic&hipster audience who still can't get out of 1980s. Basically, every article about superior mechanical keyboards reads exactly like audiophile-targeted articles telling how vinyl sound is superior to CDs/digital.

> Have mechanical keyboards had any innovation since the release of Model M?

Yes, dramatically.

It used to be the only ergonomic keyboard with mechanical switches was the US$300 beast of the Kinesis Advantage, but the Truly Ergonomic (https://www.trulyergonomic.com) and the Ergodox (http://ergodox.org) has kicked off a wave of next-gen ergonomic keyboards featuring column-staggering, better use of thumb keys, a wide key switch selection, and reprogrammable microcontrollers.

Disclaimer: I sell DIY ergonomic mechanical keyboard kits, (http://atreus.technomancy.us) so I'm probably biased but whatever.

There also has been improvement in the switches themselves: Matias (http://matias.ca) Quiet Click switches have the same sound damping properties as the quiet Cherry switches but offer a higher actuation point and smoother action. They have also recently developed a prototype of a linear switch.

Hmm, cool, Matias actually looks like a modern keyboard and with their own switches even. Okay, I guess it refutes some of my statements :)

I have to agree with you on one point though: the continued prevalence of the conventional 104-key row-staggered layout is baffling. Up to the mid-80s keyboards used to exhibit gradual evolution in the layout, (function keys on the left, arrow keys in a + shape, etc) then one design happened to take hold and everything else basically died out.

We can (and often do) come up with much better designs, but nothing seems to stick.

There has been innovations. Model M used a buckling spring[1] (which some people claim is unmatched) while Cherry MX uses a mechanism[2] (which some people claim is superior).

There are a wide variety of Cherry MX switches and, yes, one that has a good tactile response but is also relatively quiet: Cherry MX Clear.

[1]: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Origbuck1.jpg [2]: http://deskthority.net/wiki/File:Mx_clear_illustration.gif

I'm not saying there were no innovation at all. But 30 years have passed since Model M release, you would expect keybs to change much, much more.

Also, Cherry is the only major manufacturer of mechanical switches in mass produced keyboards.

Razer now produces their own switches. Admittedly they are incredibly Cherry-like, so that doesn't address your point about "innovation", which I assume here to mean "variation" or simply product diversity?

For that, take a look at the switches produced by Topre Corp: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Topre_switch

30 years may have passed since the Model M was released, but typewriters have been in use for much longer. The fundamental structure of a keyboard is not new at all, and as such the mechanisms underlying the highest-quality keyboards can't have changed too much either.

>you would see it evolve over time, trying to get rid of unwanted properties (reduce weight, dimensions, loudness)

That has happened, though, for those who want it. Emphasis on "has happened" in the past tense. I have used a Filco Majestouch space-saver [0] with MX Brown switches for seven years now, and I'll address each of these:

- Reducing dimensions has been achieved, but beyond completely removing the remaining eighth-inch bezel, it would have diminishing returns. I have relatively small hands, but even I remember typing on an 2008-era netbook with an 80%-sized keyboard as being an utter nightmare. If you mean vertical dimensions, I will have to simply disagree. I prefer the distance in key travel and not bottoming out my keys.

- I can't stand the loudness factor of many mechanical keyboards, and so I went with a board that doesn't produce or artificial add noise into its mechanism (Cherry MX Brown switches).

- I don't see weight being a factor at all, as it sits on my desk. Too light and it would probably move around, which is bad. Even with rubber feet, they eventually get a little dusty and allow the board to shift when bumped. Being featherweight would only lower that threshold.

[0]: For reference w.r.t. small bezel and size: http://i01.i.aliimg.com/wsphoto/v0/32216845105_1/Mechanical-...

Or maybe it's a result of people not thinking about keyboards much? Technology evolution is driven by profit from a solid userbase, and right now the userbase is fairly small, so there isn't much extra money for R&D.

While there may not be much evolution in switches, there is a lot of recent evolutions in keyBOARDs.

Some examples: two new versions of the ergodox announced more or less simultaneously:

ErgoDox Infinity https://www.massdrop.com/buy/infinity-ergodox?mode=guest_ope...

ErgoDox EZ https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/ergodox-ez-an-incredible-...

Massdrop's Infinity https://www.massdrop.com/article/the-story-behind-infinity-a...

Keyboardio http://www.keyboard.io/

My whole point is that mechanical keyboards owe their existence to people thinking too much about keyboards :)

Membrane keyboards are not all that bad.

I moved from macbooks to thinkpads for many reasons (including freedom - I want a machine that runs coreboot) but the keyboard was just a big unexpected surprise.

Now, I am a big fan of the pre-X220 "classic" 7 rows keyboards, found on every model before. It's simple, comfortable and standard. I remember how a Thinkpad 600 felt "good" about 15 years ago, and now I just get the same good feeling back. Maybe it's nostalgia, but it feels quite good.

For my desktop computer, I have a SK8845 (same thinkpad keyboard in usb form factor), with a trackpoint + a trackpad + 5 mouse buttons all in one device. Very handy, and no window keys to bother me. You can fetch a new one off ebay for like $30. The SK8855 are expansive - a new one will set you back by $200.

Before that thinkpad keyboard, still in a membrane, I enjoyed the Apple raised USB keyboard- not the contemporary aluminum chiclet keyboard, the plastic one. On amazon, it's the M9034LL http://www.amazon.com/Apple-M9034LL-A-USB-Keyboard/dp/B0000A...

I guess for me the difference is not so much the hipster "click" noise but the size of the key. I don't want an empty space between my keys.

EDIT: fixed the model numbers

I used to try an old IBM model M in the office but my colleagues would not accept the noise. Also I found it a bit loud myself. Currently I am using various IBM/Lenovo Standard Server Keyboards - I can recommend them.

Same here, my coworkers danced in joy when I finally moved it home. Currently using various Thinkpad keyboards at work, and the Cherry Stream XT on desktops (cheap and sturdy, love it).

I use a HHKB Pro 2 in the office and would have a very hard time giving it up. It is a joy to type on, I can reach all of the keys very easily and the CTRL key is correctly placed; what more could I want?

Yes, I could get by with an 'ordinary' keyboard. I don't feel as though my typing speed or accuracy improves vastly. But, it's comfortable, beautiful, has a very premium feel, makes a satisfying 'thunk', and my hands are on it all day; I'd buy another in a heartbeat if this one disappeared.

The author describes his experience with mechanical switches being more tough on fingers than the switches of mainstream. I have found the opposite; mechanical switches are both more light to type and easier on the fingers itself. And unlike the usual rubber dome keyboards, mechanical switches don't harden over the years just like that.

IIRC he says that it's rougher on the fingers when you're first learning because you constantly bottom out. The trick is to release immediately as it actuates, but this takes a while to adjust to.

I use a mechanical keyboard in the office, and It's definitely louder than the membrane keyboard I use on my laptop. However, I don't bottom out my keys anymore, and the click of the keypresses is quieter than anyone else in my office who types more aggressively and bottoms out.

It totally depends on the switches used. That is mentioned in the article, but he is focussing too much on the sound to make that stick. Yes, MX-Blue are quite loud. The mentioned MX-Brown are louder than a normal keyboard as well, but even they are not really loud. Then come MX-Black, who have no click sound at all, and should not be loud at all.

There are some alternatives, the old MX-Crystal (?), or MX-Green and Red, and I'm only talking about Cherry. The author mentioned sour fingers, he probably should get a keyboard with switches that need less force (with the MX-Brown he should already have on, if I'm not mistaken).

Mechanical keyboards are no hipster-device for YOLO-sound (wow, that hurts to write, and it hurt to read). They are the better tool for a job, if you write much. It's a bit sad to see the article misrepresenting that, even though it is nice to see them appreciated.

Tip: If you want to try a mechanical keyboard without fluff and hype price, look into the basic cherry lines, G80-3000 especially. They have the same switches and cost the half.

I got a basic cherry board, and the USB connection in the back broke after about a month's use. I take it with me with my laptop - which could explain the additional wear and tear, but I've not been doing anything other than typing and removing the cable when moving the laptop - I can't say I'm impressed with the life. (YMMV, of course)

> Tip: If you want to try a mechanical keyboard without fluff and hype price, look into the basic cherry lines, G80-3000 especially.

And UniComp. Proper buckling spring keys, no bullshit.

There is a reason why Pianists still love and use mechanical, wooden keyboards designed 100 years ago.

Pre-WWI pianos from Vienna (the one I met was a Steinway) still have ivory on the keys instead of some white coating they have on the keys now. Those ivory keys are unlike any other piano I've touched. Amazingly contradictory feelings of how sturdy the keys feel without the cold-edges. Very soft, but hard at the same time. Amazing.

You probably mean Bösendorfer? This is a Viennese company, Steinway not. Their playability is incredible. The touch and sensibility of such instruments even from 1910 (restored) is unbelievable.

One would save much more time by switching to alternative keyboard layouts (dvorak, or something that was on HN mentioned as more code-friendly).

Typing for programmer is probably the least of a problem, we spend order of magnitude time thinking.

Much like switching to Dvorak, moving to a better key switch isn't about speed; it's about comfort and satisfaction.

Speed was the only reasonable argument in this article.

I don't get how you can get better 'accuracy' on a 0|1 button.

Problems with mechanical keyboards - unavailable in Europe, extremely expensive in Europe or always some twisted and perverted layout (qwertz, UK or other travesties).

Cherry G80-3000 is one of the cheaper mechanical keyboards. Sure it has cheap plastic terrible case, no special features. The key caps are just key caps. It's not marketed to gamers, but it's a good office keyboard with mechanical switches and it's available with a lot of different layouts.

Check the product codes for different variants: http://deskthority.net/wiki/Cherry_article_numbers

Exactly. I don't even need a 1980s style mechanical keyboards.

The 1990s style Microsoft and Logitech keyboards and mices were very durable and really good.

But you cannot buy them anymore, the form factor changed as well as the build quality is a lot lower nowadays.

The same happened with notebooks. The IBM/Lenovo ThinkPad were of a really good quality and had the best keyboard. Sadly, one has to use the 2011 model T420/X220 as Lenovo stopped producing them. Lenovo introduced a new chiclet-style keyboard and removed the trackpoint buttons.

well, not entirely.

Amazon.de has US keyboard layouts (I bought three different products from them with US keyboards) and all the "brick-and-mortar" stores in Sweden which stock mech keyboards have the native nordic layout.

they are very much available in the EU, your point about having the native layouts is true though- but that will be true for all keyboards in all counties- people always stock the native and almost never another countries.

Have you checked prices compared to overseas though. Even if you add VAT they are still more expensive. With the euro crashing it the price disparity is reduced though. But it was annoying 2-3 years ago.

depends where you look I guess, I think in east asia it's cheaper, but that might be because they're mostly produced there.

remember to not include USA because they do not compute sales tax on the list price, only after check-out.

Please produce a notebook with a good keyboard, again.

ThinkPad T420 and X220, you will be missed :'(

I hereby declare my love for the Cooler Master Storm Quick Fire XT with Cherry MX Brown switches. It's cheap and entry level but it is my first mechanical keyboard and the tactile feedback is incredible.

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