Comment by jostylr | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jostylr | Hacker News Reader

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When you come from a place of ownership of your own life, you can accept doing whatever needs to be done.

I am a janitor with a math phd that gets to have water gun fights with kids; I work at a Sudbury school. I am much happier cleaning toilets than being in some BS academic department committee or grading kids and telling them they suck. Or even worse, teaching engineering students beautiful mathematical secrets, holding them to high standards, seeing them get there, and then hearing from them that the time spent on my course was hurting them in other courses. True story.

Being supportive of life is itself a fantastic reward. Being treated with respect is what matters, not the actual work. Cleaning toilets is really not a big deal. Being treated like a piece of crap is.

Also good citizenship is not about following orders due to fear of retribution. It is looking at the world with care and compassion for others and doing what needs to be done, speaking up and supporting one another. It is about seeing the beauty in others and appreciating that. At a Sudbury school, the halls flow with such feelings as it is the natural way that communities of human beings bind together. That is citizenship.

And not surprisingly, when a person wants to be a part of a community, then they can follow community rules and standards quite easily. It is in our nature.

Traditional schools teach gaming the system, being brutal to other people. Being excluded because of not meeting some arbitrary pointless standard is just a crappy way of living. Humans learn from what those around them do. Are the behaviors of teachers in traditional school the way humans should treat one another?

Luke's essay reminded me of Aaron Swartz's essays when he dropped out of high school and my own experiences when I dropped out around the same time. We knew something was wrong, and by the size of the "education reform" section at the library, we're not the only ones.

Sudbury Valley School was my first thought as I read Luke's essay, so I am very excited to read your contribution to this discussion. The readers of Hacker News want a startup to fix education. But what if this startup was already founded forty-seven years ago in Framingham, MA?

For anyone who is interested in learning more about Sudbury Valley School, I recommend reading some of their articles at the following location:

http://sudval.org/05_articles.html

Every Sudbury school startup is its own thing. Each school is different in its own way, much like different tribes of humans. There are a few basic common elements such as Judicial Committee and School Meeting, but each school forges its own path.

This is one of the big challenges of spreading this model. It is a lean startup. By the way, for those who want to sort of see the school from the eyes of a startup, I wrote a series of blog entries using the ideas of Peter Thiel's Zero to One and making the case that the natural way to prep people for startups (and the future) is a Sudbury education.

http://blog.aisudbury.com/post/102537221611/educational-prep...

Can you describe how graduation works at a Sudbury school? Does everyone have to meet the same requirements as in most school systems, or are graduation requirements tied to each student's stated goals?

Students need not graduate from a Sudbury school. They can simply age out of it. In general, it is not an accredited diploma and so it is only if a student wishes to do so.

But the process if a student choose to do it is to answer the question "How has your time here prepared you for the adult world?" It is a very open-ended question and students write a thesis on it, often submitting a portfolio of what they have done.

There is an internal committee that serves the role of advisor, if requested. The committee for the defense of thesis consists of staff from other Sudbury schools who generally hold students to high standards. It is possible to not successfully defend though one can take another chance the following year if so desired.

We are a young school (7 years) and have only had two graduates so far. One submitted a portfolio of pictures along with their thesis (pursuing visual arts in college) and the other presented a cookbook (currently a chef at a well-regarded local bakery).

The defenses lasted two or three hours. Experiences at other schools vary, but it seems that it is quite a common experience for 18 year old Sudbury students to pursue the graduation.

You describe yourself as a janitor with a math phd in a fully democratic school. I imagine janitorial work in a school that kids want to be at is much different than janitorial work in a traditional school.

Do you end up teaching on a regular basis? I can't imagine you just stick to janitorial work and water gun fights in the environment you describe.

This is a school where kids have a great deal of freedom, particularly in regards to eating. This leads to messes. I write the worst messes up to be adjudicated by our Judicial Committee (a team of students and possibly a staff, depending on the week), but children are inherently messy. Given the freedom, they make more of a mess.

The age range is also from 5-18 which adds in another level of potential messes.

I wear many hats at the school. Janitorial work is largely a few hours in the afternoon. At other times, I am largely talking with kids and staff. I do administrative work, I work on promoting the school, I write up some code to help make things move smoother, I do interviews of prospective students, I help kids with band-aids and finding lost items, etc. We are currently working on raising capital to buy a new building which has been both interesting and time consuming.

There is no teaching done here. Rarely I might get a question about math from students, but those who pursue it do it on their own. They don't want answers, they want journeys.

The life of a Sudbury staffer is one of a minimal salary. So I do teach online at a couple of places to support my family. That can be drudgery, but a burden I take on willingly as I need to. I do teach a course of my own design which is a lot more to the point of what math is and it is more fun to do. But the courses where I just teach what I'm told to teach are frustrating, to say the least.

So I am certainly not a classic janitor. But I have known many in my life. When treated with respect, they don't mind their job. When treated like crap, they despise their job, as any would do. And in a nice, pleasant environment, they do plenty of talking and their days need not be drudgery. It is about the human environment, whether red, white, or blue collar work.

First of all, thanks for the first hand perspective. I work in a small alternative school that's explored a number of models, and we're still finding the right model for us. I tell students about Sudbury schools from time to time, as a measure of how far we could go away from traditional ed.

> There is no teaching done here. Rarely I might get a question about math from students, but those who pursue it do it on their own. They don't want answers, they want journeys.

For students who want a journey, an expert in the field can be an invaluable mentor. I didn't learn a whole lot of programming for my dad, but he sure helped me choose directions in my journey at key points. I imagine some of your conversations put you in that role.

Thank you for the work you and your colleagues are doing. You are a source of deep inspiration for many of us.

I certainly had that idea before I started. I think we all do. And I hope it may happen here and there. Mentoring and collaboration are to me the true teaching models that work for humans. But interests have to align, of course.

We are still a young school with just a handful of 14+ year olds. I think in terms of content, that kind of mentoring would happen with the older ones, if at all. And it may take a sufficiently large pool before compatible interests start to emerge. More than likely, older students would end up with mentorships from external people.

But certainly the presence of a diverse set of adults being authentic about what they do and who they are is an important aspect of this model.

If you or anyone else you reference to Sudbury ever want more information, my email is my username here at gmail.

If you're interested in a student's perspective on a Sudbury school, I went to/help to found one from 7 to 16. My email is my username at gmail if you have any questions.

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