Spare a thought for the Western men trapped in Japan | Hacker News Reader

Spare a thought for the Western men trapped in Japan

japantimes.co.jp

43 pointspgalland28 comments

> Jim, an American in his late 20s, used to be a very passionate young man. He claimed he was a communist — a Stalinist, even. He would engage in endless political debates during smoking breaks and drinking sessions. He dreamed of graduate school, an academic career and, one day, even leading a riot. But instead, he got married to a Japanese girl and already had children by the time he graduated. She did not want to leave Japan and insisted he earn a stable income, so he ended up teaching English somewhere in the sticks, far from any big university. “It is only for the time being,” he insists, but it’s difficult to see how he will ever have the money or mobility to realize his dreams.

This doesn't seem like something that uniquely happens to western men in Japan. This seems like the sort of thing that happens to people in relationships the world over.

Yep; if you tie yourself down with children, what do you expect to happen besides getting yourself stuck?

Potentially: realizing personal fulfillment based on nurturing your own offspring, and learning new depths to connecting and loving others!

But if you're young and unattached, so much more the reason to travel and fly and explore. For most people, it's a lot easier to do that before kiddos.

Reminds me of the "one day we'll move to France and become creative bohemians like we're surely meant to be" dream in Yates' Revolutionary Road. Hopefully it's less destructive.

Jim reminded me of the excellent BBC documentary "Japan - A Story of Love and Hate". The documentary follows Naoki, a former communist and now a middle-aged furita.

I don't think it is a uniquely Japanese phenomenon, but I do think that Japanese society is uniquely lacking in opportunities for people to live outside of the mainstream. It seems that if you miss out on Shinsotsu-Ikkatsu-Saiyō, you are a permanent second-class citizen, with few prospects beyond bare survival. The west is far from perfect, but it offers far more alternatives and second chances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fjqd3sIcfrY

> Patrick, a 31-year-old American IT specialist, decided to leave a Japanese company he was working for because after all the overtime work he put in, he hit the glass ceiling.

Could that be a well known HNer by any chance?

The gentleman who provided that quote is not me.

Interesting reading but I had to chuckle at this: "He dreamed of graduate school, an academic career, and even leading a riot" ... But now .. . "it’s difficult to see how he will ever have the money or mobility to realize his dreams" (of leading a riot)

I also chuckle at the writer who has no imagination. This guy is starting his own tribe. Is it so difficult to see how a tribe can lead to fulfilled Stalinist dreams and even riots.

> These Western men do not really have to learn the language or try to fit in. Their Japanese girlfriends or wives will take care of the majority of things for them.

This part is glossed over, but kind of telling. Not learning the language or trying to assimilate is a choice, and obviously has its disadvantages. When you make your partner compensate for a lot of those, then it's pretty hard to sympathise, especially when you add children into the mix.

This article does not tell the whole, sad truth about the landmines for Western men in relationships with Japanese women: 1) lack of full parental rights for men,[0] 2) potential for false allegations compounded with a very high conviction rate[1].

[0] http://www.blacktokyo.com/2013/11/24/divorce-child-kidnappin... [1] http://www.economist.com/node/17259159

> lack of full parental rights for men

Yeah, that's not just Japan. In most countries, even where the law is "unbiased", courts, social workers, and law enforcement typically takes the side of the mother. There are many cases in the UK for example where courts ruled in favor of the dad, but orders are simply not enforced.

I have not been with my kids for birthdays, Christmas or New Years' for 6 years now. Although I have a legal right to see them for these and many other days, their mother doesn't let them, even though they really want to.

I can go to Court, but even though the Judge is extremely likely to rule in our favor, My Lawyer tells me there is very little hope in achieving compliance and enforcement. He advised me to save the money, and pay for their school instead.

My son will be 16 next year, and will have significantly more freedom in making his own choices. Just one more year...

>Sebastian, a 32-year-old student with several part-time jobs and 12 years of service in the German armed forces, was dumped by the Japanese girlfriend he had been seeing for a year because he had 'no future' in Japan, she said.

Just what I need to read as I'm in the happiest relationship of my life with a Japanese girl.

Take heart: If you're dating a Japanese girl that wasn't raised in Japan, you probably have nothing to worry about. If you are, you're still probably okay - she's already going pretty far outside of the usual "traditional" values.

If you're really that worried, you could just be an adult and talk to her about your concerns before you take the plunge and get married. You should probably be doing this anyway - what are your goals and dreams? What do you expect to change or stay the same after getting married? What are your long term plans? These sorts of questions should be fully answered by both parties before you tie the knot.

No she's from Japan. True blood through and through. But yes, you're correct, she's not very traditional. I'm not all that worried; I know things will work out and if they don't I move on.

We're both young. She's 27, I'm 25. We're both travelers and neither of us wants to waste the working holiday boat before we're 30. If we're still going strong at 29-30 then I'll propose. It's not something we're talked about directly but it's something we both know without words. Her and I both want the same thing around 30 which is monogamy and kids.

I think I'll be fine. I'm pretty happy and excited for the next few years.

Cry me a river.

I agree. If you get a woman pregnant and marry her, it's called fulfilling your responsibility as a parent. You don't like it? Don't become a parent in the first place.

I find it disgusting that the writer would describe the guy's situation as being "sucked into a trap" (implying Japanese women are just scheming to catch a man) or that she would be sympathetic to him for being dumped by a girlfriend who wanted a stable breadwinner for a husband. The writer already states that "many women drop out of [employment] when they get married and have children, whether they want to or not," so wanting a husband who can support them is simply sensible.

> I find it disgusting that the writer would describe the guy's situation as being "sucked into a trap"

You find it disgusting because you didn't read very carefully. Read it again:

> Japan can be the best place in the world for some, but for others it can be a trap. And sometimes I think it’s far easier for Western men to be sucked into this trap than women.

Then the author proceeds to list all of the ways in which a foreign man can become "trapped", from overworking, to hitting a career ceiling, to entering an unfamiliar relationship:

> Men can be sidelined when it comes to participation in child-rearing and other home-related matters, such as controlling the family budget.

to having difficulty finding work, to being harassed, and finally to having difficulty communicating with coworkers and people and feelings of exclusion.

All of that is the "trap". I read absolutely _no_ such implication that Japanese women are scheming.

It's still ridiculous that they are portrayed as victims while Japan is portrayed as a "trap."

It's not like these men are refugees from Syria. They chose to come to Japan, they chose to stay, and the nature of Japanese society has never been a secret.

Most of their hardships are common sense. Surprise, surprise, career advancement in Japan often requires fluency in Japanese. And yes, supporting a family is generally pretty hard if you want to be a full time student.

A subset of foreigners in Japan make it their hobby to explain to why their lives are tough, but leave out the fact that they chose it.

poor communist was sad when she seized his means of production

viva la revolucion

> He claimed he was a communist — a Stalinist, even. He would engage in endless political debates during smoking breaks and drinking sessions. He dreamed of graduate school, an academic career and, one day, even leading a riot.

I am really glad this guys dream's got crushed by reality. He just sounds like a horrible person.

Communist is one thing, but I can't imagine anyone having any sympathy for a self-identified Stalinist. Would this article have painted him in the same light if he said "National Socialist" instead of "Stalinist"?

I would love the irony of a poor national socialist militant being a victim of discrimination in a foreign country.

He sounds annoying, but not necessarily horrible.

I mean, as not-horrible as you can be while identifying yourself with one of the greatest mass-murderers and psychopaths of the 20th century.

Agreed. At least he is not a follower of Mao, Hitler or Genghis Khan. Then he would be a really awful person.

There are plenty of confused college students wearing Che shirts. Reality is quite the cure all.

I knew three insufferable card-carrying members of the communist party in college. Ten years later, all three of them wound up becoming highly paid lawyers. The world needs assholes.

I'll save my pity for the tech forums still trapped in Orientalism.

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