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Comment by drvd | Hacker News Reader

Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss. Nobody likes to pay taxes and everybody complains about the high taxes. But I think (actually hope!) that Germans understand (if only unconsciously) that happiness is much more depending on getting old without fear of poverty, knowing to be treated if ill, being able to go safely outside anytime anywhere, not dropping out of society if bad luck happens and getting proper education than on the single only monetary principle "I don't pay taxes!".

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I'm German and I'm happy to pay taxes. You do get something for everyone in return (infrastructure, education, some social security (which has been eroded, unfortunately), health care, etc).

Also, I studied in the UK and my tuition fees have been payed by the UK government. So it seems only fair to invite others to study in Germany.

You do get something for everyone in return

I think that this is the crux of it. In my experience in the U.S., my taxes are funding things that I not only get no benefit from, but actively oppose on a moral level. That makes it a much harder thing to accept.

Also, you could argue that it is a good investment to have high educated foreigners receive their education in your country: it's like extending your business network on a nation-wide level.

I think so, too. Contacts become contracts.

Yes, it is like that if you only charge for your model of business expansion is to charge for your product in your own town and give it away for free everywhere else.

If Germany is like other European countries, it also helps that your taxes are "automatically paid" to the government, usually by having the employer take them out of your salary and paying them. It's not like in US where Americans feel every dollar going to the government when they do their taxes. Since they are paid automatically, the income taxes aren't even on people's minds, usually.

However, if Europeans had to do their own taxes for their salaries, I'm sure many more would be upset about high taxes.

Even if your tax is paid automatically you can still recover taxes but it is hard and the laws are confusing. In Germany a special profession with a state exam (Steuerberater) as well as special associations (Lohnsteuerhilfeverein) exist or have been created to help individuals. For self-employed or people interested in recovering part of their taxes using those services is almost unavoidable.

In the US they take money out of your paycheck too. The only difference is once a year we "settle up" for the previous calendar year. You pay more if you're short and get some back if you overpaid.

There must be a similar process in Germany for people who aren't 9-5 types.

Federal and state taxes are automatically withheld in the USA. Filing a return is usually an attempt to get some refunded, or in my case, getting screwed even more and writing a check. You can even be lucky enough to pay estimated taxes every quarter.

Anyone on a W-2 does have their taxes taken out automatically. That's what the whole purpose of filling out a W-4 prior to starting employment. Many people overpay in taxes and end up getting a substantial refund at the beginning of each year. How do Americans feel every dollar going to the government in this case?

  Germans are not so obsessed about not paying taxes like e.g. Americans or Swiss.

How do the Swiss fit in to this? Actually the tax honesty is considered a lot higher than in Germany (let alone South European countries).

The reason for this being that the tax declaration is fairly straight forward and simple. Fairness of the (progressive) tax code is quite widely recognized, which makes for good - if not happy - tax payers.

If you're implying that evading taxes is something like a Swiss hobby and legal (bullshit I see quite often spouted by even reputable American papers) this is absolute rubbish. Tax evasion is not legal in any way, shape or form.

So my question stands: Where do the Swiss come into your equation?

Where did you get the idea that Swiss are obsessed with not paying taxes ? In fact Switzerland and Germany are very similar in all the aspects you mention.

I agrree. Being German, it's my impression that the Swiss are even more honest with taxes than the Germans. The general impression in many countries rather is: The Swiss are very honest with their taxes, but don't care about tax honesty about foreigners in their own countries (getting people to be honest about their taxes is a problem that each country has to solve by itself). This is different from the German mentality - also rather honest, but very missionary about tax honesty in other countries (especially the Greek seem to have a serious problem with this ;-) ). As one says humorously in German "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen." (freely translated with "The world shall recover by the German quiddity.").

Reminds me of "Weil nicht sein kann, was nicht sein darf." I'm still looking for a pithy English equivalent.

(See http://ingeb.org/Lieder/palmstre.html for the full text of the poem.)

Really? you regularly see reports of German Pensioners getting caught trying to smuggle large amounts of cash to Lichtenstein.

Though Germany isn't as bad as Italy or Greece

Amazingly enough in most places with sharply progressive tax codes the people who actually have to pay the taxes are a lot less thrilled with the status quo than everyone else. Though they are certainly willing to pay lip service to its benefits.

Well, okay, you've made the standard argument for a social democracy. It's sort of irrelevant to the question of whether or not you should provide services to citizens of other countries.

If your argument is Germans pay their taxes and don't care how the money gets spent I have to say I'm a bit skeptical.

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