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Comment by forgotAgain | Hacker News Reader

It's just sleazy that all of their advertising is centered on how the keyboard differentiates the device from other tablets and then the keyboard isn't included in the base price.

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I strongly agree with this.

The keyboard is great. Having a choice of keyboards is also great. However Microsoft makes the keyboard a core part of this device (both literally, and in adverts) so to me there should be no scenario where it doesn't ship with one.

They should just set the price at $599 and include the keyboard. At least it is an "out the door" price then, not $500 with a hidden $100 tack-on.

I believe the idea behind not including it is that you can choose the color of your keyboard without them having to anticipate demand for certain colors and package them together. I don't think that's a very good rationalization (just give them an option for keyboard color and ship a second box!), however.

Nobody needs colored keyboards. The keyboard color should just match the device it's made for.

I'm kind of dumbfounded by this. People like personalized goods, this is no different from picking a colored iPad case or wanting your car in some color other than Ford Black.

Nobody needs colored keyboards.

You can make this argument all the way down to basic sustenance, healthcare, and shelter. No-one needs more than those things.

At the very least Microsoft should include some base level keyboard with the device and keep an upgrade available.

Seems like they are damned if they do, damned if they don't. They attempted to make the Kinect sensor a core part of the Xbox One (including making it central in their advertising, etc) but eventually bowed to pressure to unbundle it in order to sell a $100-cheaper SKU.

A keyboard is a bit more fundamental to a computing experience than a hardly-used peripheral is to a gaming experience.

Not at all because these are tablet computers. I own a few of them and I can honestly say that I only use the keyboard when I'm sitting at a desk with it...and the keyboard I use there is an MS Natural keyboard.

If I travel, I take my Typecover with me, but I mostly work at home.

I don't entirely disagree, but my point was that it's a lot harder to use a computer without a physical keyboard/mouse than it is to use an Xbox without a Kinect. You can certainly use a Surface with no type cover, but even in Modern IE and other apps I prefer to type with a hardware keyboard.

Let me put it this way: by having a computer (even if it has a tablet form factor, it is a Real Computer) without a mouse/keyboard, you give up half its potential (if not more, depending on how you use it). By having an Xbox without a Kinect you give up none of its core capabilities, just some of its extra navigational features and a distinct minority of exclusive games.

It depends on how you work, so I disagree that you always lose the core functionality. I could totally go without the type cover if I wanted to because I just don't travel much.

As a matter of fact, I think when the Surface Pro 4 comes out, I will not buy the type cover and take the savings instead. In any case, I really, really disagree that Microsoft is being sleazy by offering a choice. It's more like they're going all-in on the idea that you can use all of Windows without a physical keyboard.

> I could totally go without the type cover if I wanted to because I just don't travel much.

But also because you have another keyboard and don't mind forking over money for a docking station or plugging in. You're replacing the type cover with another keyboard, but that's still something you had to buy.

> when the Surface Pro 4 comes out, I will not buy the type cover and take the savings instead

Microsoft has announced that the SP3 type cover will be compatible with the next Pro model, so you wouldn't have to at any rate :D

> In any case, I really, really disagree that Microsoft is being sleazy by offering a choice.

I agree with you, but I don't think they're offering the choice you think they are[1]. They bill it as "The Tablet That Can Replace Your Laptop," right above a picture of the products with the type cover on them. The intended use-case clearly involves the type cover.

[1] http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/26m9cu/we_are_panos_pa...

In case you don't want to follow the link: the choice is the color of the cover, not whether or not to have a cover.

> "The Tablet That Can Replace Your Laptop,"...the intended use case.

So, what is your point here? That they should always bundle the keyboard so that users like me have to pay $100 more every single time? I don't understand what your complaint is or what you think Microsoft is doing wrong.

From the reddit comment that you linked to from the Surface Team:

> "... and some people definitely wanted to buy without cover."

That's going to be me when I get the Surface Pro 4. I don't have a Surface Pro 3, so I don't already have a compatible Type Cover already.

If I buy one to replace my Dell Venue 8 Pro (which I use fully without a keyboard), I will not need a keyboard at all...and I still count it as a laptop replacement since I can (and do) everything that I could on a laptop by using the virtual keyboard. If buy one to replace my Surface Pro (1st gen), then I'm going to use a $30 full size keyboard when I'm sitting and the virtual keyboard when I'm walking around with it. So, I'm glad that they don't bundle the keyboard.

In any case, I just don't understand how anyone could possibly have a problem with this.

What's puzzling is that in the "what's in the box" section of the product page, which is where I look for this kind of "gotcha", there is no mention or photo of the stylus being included. I'm sure it is, but it seems like a colossal marketing oversight to not explicitly state that the pen is included in the box. And in the tech specs it states there is support for the surface pen...but again nothing about a pen being part of the tech specs.

http://www.microsoftstore.com/store/msusa/en_US/pdp/productI...

I would assume that one of the pens would not be included then. Because it's specifically spelled out (and shown) as being included in the Surface 3 Pro.

That is the case. All the way at the bottom of that page: [6] Surface Pen sold separately.

The announcement page says pen wouldn't be included.

The pre-order page explicitly states that the stylus is not included. Tricky marketing!

It'll work with a finger or generic capacitive stylus just not be as accurate. Since they support both modes, they can leave the relatively expensive stylus out.

My first thoughts as well. All the marketing images of the product have the screen connected to the keyboard but the keyboard isn't included.

Yes, this has always bothered me, too.

"Checkout the new Surface - it's only $500 just like the iPad, but unlike the iPad it comes with a keyboard, too!

Oh btw, you actually have to pay $130 more for the keyboard."

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