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Comment by tptacek | Hacker News Reader

For instance, if you are a company that handles confidential medical information (any health care organization, many insurers, every employee benefits management organization, &c), you may be required to have controls in place to ensure that nobody uses your Internet connection to exfiltrate people's PII through Google Mail.

Similarly, many investment banks and financial information firms have strict requirements to monitor all communications owing to SEC rules and insider trading regulation.

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> if you are a company that handles confidential medical information (any health care organization, many insurers, every employee benefits management organization, &c), you may be required to have controls in place to ensure that nobody uses your Internet connection to exfiltrate people's PII through Google Mail.

Yes, but what are those controls? You check every packet to see if it contains any information from one of your databases?

What if the person sending the data just applies a simple obfuscation technique to the data, or just tunnels through some other encryption scheme?

Edit: downmods? really?

Search for things like “data loss appliance”. As an example, when BlueCoat isn't helping repressive regimes spy on their citizens, they're helping businesses watch every outgoing packet:

https://www.bluecoat.com/products/dlp

“Blue Coat DLP allows you to easily create policies that analyze the data source, content, destination and more.

…

accurate data “fingerprinting” capabilities, in addition to powerful keyword, pattern, and regular expression support, so you can create precision policies to effectively secure your data while minimizing false positives.”

Sure, the every HN reader might have questions about this but I'd bet a LOT of C-level executives are receptive to this.

What questions do you have? Limiting the scope of discovery to fingerprinted data is a pretty good way to limit "incidental" data filtering/discovery.

Oh, sorry, I meant questions like the ones raised about how someone might try to smuggle data past such filters or some of the security aspects of having a single point with access to everything.

I certainly agree that if you have a requirement to watch outbound data like this, having a system to selectively capture it is much better than simply attempting to record everything.

You don't check for every record in your database, you create a regex (or multiple regexes) which matches the patterns you don't want leaked. This is how I've seen Data Loss Prevention done in the Sophos UTM.

Yes, if even the simplest obfuscation technique is employed, this system falls flat on its face. (Shh don't tell the regulators)

Sophos is a low-end solution. Higher end solutions (e.g. Vontu) do in fact let you detect on individual records or groups of non-regex detectable groups of records using fingerprinting.

Simple answer: Yes, they basically check every packet, or at least as many as they can. No, DLP isn't perfect, and it doesn't always work. This should not be a shocker.

Notes:

1) Modern DLP solutions have some pretty sophisticated obfuscation detection tech. Like almost all of these kinds of technologies, they're looking for the 80% case, not the 99% case.

2) Tunneling out encrypted tunnels is subject to traffic analysis techniques. It's not as uncommon as one might suspect to detect out-of-band ex-filtration of many different types this way.

I guess my hangup was on the claim that such a scheme could 'ensure' prevention of ex-filtration which, frankly, seemed laughably impossible.

Please, point out any systems which have believeable claims for doing this. In my experience most 'DLP' systems do no such thing, they are just like the bit of string which stops you stealing pens at the bank, basically theatre.

Automatic analysis to statistically detect hidden channels is a research topic, it can be used to put bounds on the exfil rate but not reliably detect it.

What if the site you're accessing is required to have controls in place to ensure that nobody can intercept the communication between the user and the site? I'd expect that to be the case when the site handles things like confidential medical information.

When you are using your employer's computing equipment on your employer's premises, you have limited right to privacy.

In a typical deployment of MitM tech (e.g. Bluecoat, Websense, etc.), things like personal banking, health care sites, etc., are exempted from the interception policy to avoid personal privacy issues and HR headaches. This can be overridden in the local policy of course, but I've rarely seen that in practice (anecdote isn't fact, blah, blah).

Be aware that the site you're going to may be MitM'ing sessions to meet other compliance regulations (e.g. SOX in the financial sector).

> In a typical deployment of MitM tech (e.g. Bluecoat, Websense, etc.), things like personal banking, health care sites, etc., are exempted from the interception policy to avoid personal privacy issues and HR headaches.

How does it know? Does it have a list of all "personal banking, healthcare sites, etc" from the whole world? How is that list kept up-to-date? What happens if the site the employee is accessing is missing from the list? What happens if the employee knows these sites aren't monitored and finds a way to use them to bypass the monitoring?

> Be aware that the site you're going to may be MitM'ing sessions to meet other compliance regulations (e.g. SOX in the financial sector).

If it's the site itself, is it really a MITM? And even if they technically use a MITM, does it really matter, since the site would have access to the plaintext anyways?

Is there any way to detect that you're being MITM'd?

You check the certificate chain and compare it to a clean version. Obviously that's going to be a solution limited to very savvy users.

That's part of the point of certificate pinning.

Would love to know this as well. I only have a high level understanding of the purpose of CA Certs, but beyond that I'm lost.

Ignorant questions ahoy:

1. Using Chrome, would you have to manually accept the MITM certificate? 2. Could such a certificate be valid across multiple domains? 3. Would it pose any threat to the computer if it was moved from the MITM network to an outside network? 4. What kind of potential problems could occur if I issued a self-signed certificate for my network?

Check the certificate store for the browser you are using. Mozilla Firefox has its own. Internet Explorer and Chrome on Windows rely on the Windows certificate store.

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/view-or-man...

Details on what certificates come with your installation of Mozilla Firefox: https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/about/governance/policies/secu...

Your organization may add their own certificates as described below: https://www.utexas.edu/its/help/user-certs/817

As far as I understand it (please someone correct me if I'm wrong):

1. In this case you would not have to manually accept anything, as the root certificate (the CNNIC cert) is already in your browser/os and the certificate chain for certs created by MCS would be OK (because their cert is signed by CNNIC).

2. As CNNIC issued them an intermediate CA cert, MCS was able to create certificates for any domain they wanted and these certificates would be considered valid by everyone that has CNNIC in the root store. So the MCS cert is not valid accross multiple domains, but it allows MCS to create certificates for every domain which kind of has the same consequences.

3. I think it would pose a threat when leaving the MITM network, but not as a consequence of having been in the MITM network. Only the root certificates are stored locally. Websites have to send a complete certificate chain that anchors their certs in one of the root certs. This means that the cert generated by MCS is not stored and therefore not used when leaving the network anymore. The danger is that this intermediate cert allows MCS to generate certs for any domain and use them outside their network, too.

4. A self signed certificate would have to be installed on the machines in the network. Otherwise users would get a certificate warning and would have to add the cert to their rootstores themselves. Other than that I think that this would grant you the same MITM-powers as this intermediate cert did for MCS, with the only restriction that you couldn't create certs for domains not in your control that would be accepted by users outside your network/that don'd have your self signed cert installed.

> Is there any way to detect that you're being MITM'd?

Yes, a project we're working on called DNSChain prevents MITM attacks for domains that have their info stored in a blockchain.

We're maintaining a list of alternatives and how they compare to DNSChain here:

https://github.com/okTurtles/dnschain/blob/master/docs/Compa...

It's the golden unsolved, perhaps unsolvable problem in crypto. Trusting trust and such. There's always a key, somewhere, that has to be shared.

One way to hack the system is if you have actual knowledge of the person you are talking to, and you assume some limited amount of tampering which can be done in real-time. For example, if I know the sound of your voice, and we want to agree on a key with no MITM, we can setup an audio channel and speak some code words to each other. Baring an adversary which can in real-time intercept and synthesize my voice convincingly speaking a different code, this is pretty secure. [1]

  [ZRTP] allows the detection of man-in-the-middle (MiTM) attacks by displaying a short
  authentication string (SAS) for the users to read and verbally compare over the phone.

Another imperfect defense is spreading over time the data that an attacker would have to intercept and modify in order to MITM. That's what Chrome is doing with their pin lists. Now an adversary would have to alter the pinning when Chrome is downloaded. Of course in this very thread we're talking about technology which can do exactly that. E.g. technology which has any hope of preventing data exfiltration, would have an easy time altering Chrome's pin-list. Of course the Chrome binaries are signed, so there's another layer to defeat, etc. etc.

So the end result is there are a lot of good technologies to prevent MITM. If you can keep the attacker out once, you can generally be confident your future conversations will be secure as well, since good protocols don't start from scratch each time, but rather "ratchet" new keys from the old as you go. [2]

One of the big trade-offs is false positives and privacy. For example, it might be nice if my browser remembered the public key of a site I visit, like HN, and let me know if it changed. Two issues are a naive implementation would also serve as a great tracker for every site I've visited, and how do I know if when I get a warning, it's a real attack and not just an expiring certificate rotating out? Now we would need a way for sites to indicate, by signing with their old key, that indeed they are switching to a new key, and complexity explodes from there.

[1] - http://blog.cryptographyengineering.com/2012/11/lets-talk-ab...

[2] - https://whispersystems.org/blog/advanced-ratcheting/

An interesting thought would be using a bloom filter to store certificate fingerprints. It would prevent someone from getting a list of all the websites/certificates a user has seen. However the significant downside is that a certificate hit could be a false positive and the user hasn't ever seen that certificate before.

> It's the golden unsolved, perhaps unsolvable problem in crypto.

I think this problem was solved fairly well by Namecoin back in 2011. Software like DNSChain [1] then makes it possible to securely access blockchains like Namecoin without having to run a full node on your phone or other device.

If you can't run your own DNSChain server (or don't have a friend's you can use), you can query two or more independent servers and make sure the responses match.

Dionysis Zyndros recently came up with a mechanism whereby you can even query a single DNSChain server (that you might not trust), and still be assured of correct replies if you received an accurate key once (we'll be publishing info on this technique soon over at blog.okturtles.com; it's somewhat similar to what you're talking about with ratcheting keys).

We maintain a comparison of various approaches here:

[1] https://github.com/okTurtles/dnschain/blob/master/docs/Compa...

Of course how could I have not mentioned the blockchain? Thank you!

Part of the trick with blockchain is validation. Everyone is not going to keep a full node, not even close, and just delegating trust is not the answer. You want to trust but verify.

I'm not sure what the state-of-the-art is these days for SPV-type verification, but I don't see anything in the current DNSChains response which would allow any kind of independent verification of the returned data.

Edit, also see: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Gmaxwell/namecoin_that_sucks...

> Part of the trick with blockchain is validation. Everyone is not going to keep a full node, not even close, and just delegating trust is not the answer. You want to trust but verify.

Right, so hence the two techniques I mentioned in my reply: query more than one server, and/or use Dionysis' "proof of transition" (for lack of a better name).

> It's the golden unsolved, perhaps unsolvable problem in crypto.

Sorry, perhaps my question wasn't clear. I wasn't asking about MITM in the general case, I was asking about this particular case. The certificate chain for Hacker News seems to go AddTrust -> COMODO -> Another COMODO -> *.ycombinator.com. So in this case, if you're MITM'd by MCS Holdings, is MCS Holdings going to be part of the chain (after a CNNIC)?

Yes, the chain would be different. MCS Holding cannot become Comodo (Comodo = AddTrust, btw), so the chain would change to CNNIC -> MCS Holdings -> *.ycombinator.com.

For web site with authentication (e.g. bank account), protocols like SRP (Secure Remote Password) would prevent the man-in-the-middle if he doesn't know your password. SRP is a mutual authentication protocol with zero knowledge and forward secrecy, it would be nice if major browsers supported it, it's not usable without browser support.

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