Show HN: Rabbits – Send an email to get any grunt-work programming job completed
ilikerabbits.com
ilikerabbits.com
-- From one of the examples.
I have uneasy feelings about this. I know that you're targeting grunt-jobs and it's easily estimateable. But I also know that things happen and they can't always be met.
If I'm going to send out a grunt-job then more often I care more about it being done well than being on time. If you're targeting quick turnaround over correctness then I imagine that I need to spend more time verifying the work, exactly what I don't want to be doing.
I have actually worked with people before that turn in projects incomplete just to have it in by the business due date, then later say sorry it has this or that bug. They do the pretend it is working dance.
Services like this tend to be the done rather than complete type of programmers unless it is an easily verifiable task.
Any programmer knows, there are many stages of done and only one complete. Is your developer you get a done type of doer or someone who completes something?
It might be in pseudocode, but transcribing it into a "real" language is trivial compared to describing the problem in the first place. If it's not, there is probably a programming tool closer to your problem domain that makes it easier.
The biggest business opportunity here is probably helping out with office automation, because not all business minded people can code, not helping professional programmers with boring grunt work.
I see where you're coming from, but I don't think this service is really trying to solve the (impossible) problem that you lay out. This is more about hiring human labour in an efficient way than it is about making software. From the homepage, I think this is the most interesting example:
Ok, so I can
(1) scrape all the pages;
(2) grab the name, address,
and phone number of every listing; and
(3) put all the listings into a CSV
spreadsheet.
This will be <price redacted>
and take three hours. Is that ok?*
Programming is is a useful skill for this task. For the right person, it's 3 hours work. For the "wrong" person, it could be 3 weeks.This type of exchange is a kind of economic fundamental. Economies are a long, long way from efficiencies and one of the biggest elements limiting them is what economists term "transaction costs." These are sometimes literal, like paying an attorney to write a contract. More often, it's a general communications difficulty.
Solving those communication problems produces. Programming-oriented-tasks is not necessarily a bad place to explore.
> How much do you charge? We never go over $300
One of these things is not like the other.
But the example is not terribly useful for a programmer to use in a bigger project, because "put it in a CSV" is too loosely specified for further automation. You would at least need it to be in a specific character set, a specific encoding (html entities or not, BOM or not), specify what to do with invalid entries, the fact that some entries are required and some optional, etc. Even with this simplified example, specifying all these details if what takes time for a programmer, not typing out the code to do it.
Edit: Perhaps I should explain, the reason I'm thinking about this is because I am currently spending a lot of time making these sort of bite sized, well specified, and useful work for a junior developer to get up to speed with. It really is a lot of work.
In the case of express.js, why would a programmer pay someone to follow a tutorial? You can't use the outcome (a completely unstyled blank website) for anything. The third example clarifies that building a themed website is out of scope.
The python module is something I could maybe see somebody ordering, if they were a student trying to get their homework done by someone else, or maybe a programmer who isn't competent to do their job but needs to deliver some code now and again and is probably being given very basic assignments.
What this seems like is a quick way to get grunt work done. I can see how web scraping can fit nicely. However, some student with a lot of free time won't value their time as much so they will write a scraper but someone like a manager with a busy engineering team can save a lot of time outsourcing tasks like this.
Another solution is to use web scraping tool like https://scrape.it to scrape a website even for complicated AJAX websites. After you know how to use it, it's way faster than writing a scraper from scratch.
Disclaimer: I wrote scrape.it
Similar to Magic. Might sound easy to order food online, but it's more time-consuming than just asking someone to do it.
We're working on fixing/scaling things, but in the meantime I didn't want to insult everyone with an automated message, so hopefully this message can catch you before that frustrated comment! Also, we do intend to get back to everyone eventually.
Just since we're on HN, if you have any thoughts to share feel free to reach out to me directly - [redacted]
>For example, we're still copy and pasting your email into our admin dashboard to get your signup link.
Sounds like you need a grunt-work programming job completed! Sorry, couldn't resist... :)
Good luck with your product, and congrats on launching![1] Use a business address, a po box, a relatives address or anything "legitimate". Cloaking in this case is just a turnoff.
[2] I hire people to do things that I could use this for.
Two days of effort would get you to a basic presentation polish (privacy policy, terms, about, and more elaboration on the financial / payment side of things), along with a PO Box.
Many end users either buy this argument or simply parrot what they see others doing (or not doing).
There are legitimate reasons for privacy but as a general rule if you are a business it's a big mistake.
On this page [1] it states that you will also "protect yourself from telemarketer". Well I am here to tell you (I also run a registrar that doesn't even offer privacy btw) that with thousands of domains under management we get perhaps 1 or 2 phone calls per week. And if we were to use a google voice number that wouldn't even be an issue. (Yes, thousands of domains ...)
I simply don't want to put my home address on the internet, and have no office address to use.
I don't know if it seems alien to you, but it's an honest question. The first thing I did when I got Internet access was to put my contact info in my finger banner. When I got web access I put up a "home page" with my contact info. It's been there since, and I think it's a feature that people can contact me if they want.
When the physical threats started I had to get the police involved.
There's also the issue of pseudonymity. If I work on a lot of different projects, I don't necessarily want everyone to know about everything I'm doing with everyone else.
This doesn't mean I ignore NDAs and share sekrit stuff - I most certainly don't. But I've freelanced in the past, and some employers have strange and unrealistic expectations about how much exclusivity they're buying.
This isn't hypothetical. In the past I've been told "You absolutely can't work for anyone else if you freelance casually for us."
Really? How about "no"?
Also it's better for free speech. I can express opinions freely with online privacy. I don't necessarily want those opinions to be associated with - say - a startup I'm creating.
Generally, contact info is a problem. It's actually mandatory for UK companies to include a business registration number and an office address. (I'm not sure how many UK devs know that.)
Problem is, when you can incorporate in Delaware or Kiev, physical contact details start to become meaningless anyway.
My rule now is that contact is easy if there's a networking, customer care, or community-building benefit. But privacy is a fine thing too.
Being able to pick and choose is best of all.
Your primary address probably has traces of your real identity all over the Internet, including orders from eBay and others, so an adversary could dox you in an instant anyway. Especially if you use it for work related things. So why not make it easy to contact you?
I agree that it's not desirable to have a home address on whois as a (once again) general rule. Yet many of our customers do that and we've never heard of any particular issues that they have had.
That said, if you are working as a business (and it's unclear if you do any business consulting or programming I did look at your website quickly (very nice btw.)) in my opinion it pays to get a PO Box for $10 per month.
I could help if you're still looking to have this done. My email is in my profile.
You'll have better luck on Elance
Might need another example on their website, since the current ones are very developer-centric, which may not reflect their true positioning intent for the service.
> And even if he could, he wouldn't be able to get the
> bank to pay for it.
You're thinking about this wrong. Bangalore office is busy today with "strategic projects". No-one bats an eyelid when you expense $150 of programming help on your corporate card. Big companies have people use unofficial resource channels to get stuff done all the time.Interesting. I would really like to know more about those 'strategic projects'.
"Get in touch (we're hiring!)"
Which is a mailto link for hello@ilikerabbits.com.
I'm sure a complete novice with Wireshark or similar could find this out instantly, but I'm a complete newbie when it comes to things of that nature.
Is this something you guys could help me with?
Deliverables would just be a simple IP (or collection of IP's) so I can just ping it using Ruby in our Rails app.
---
[0] - http://www.smitecamp.com
Regardless, if you can run the game on a Mac or Linux box, just open a shell and run this 'sudo tcpdump'. You'll see a bunch of background traffic and then you should see the connections to your hosts.
Wowhead.com -> World of Warcraft.
SmiteCamp -> Smite
Hmm.
This will solve 3 of the biggest problems with freelancer sites
1) Not knowing who to choose for the job, I'd rather a good matchmaker just get me someone who can do my task
2) Lack of instant communication, clients get uneasy when programmers don't respond.
3) Negotiating a price point takes too long because of the infrequency of interaction
My experiences with them have been great on all these metrics. I've worked with them as a dev and referred a few happy friends. Email's in my profile if you'd like to hear more.
How are they in that regard, and overall?
In my 20 years, I've never not been able to ask a client or PM or end user for clarification on what they mean, but what I took from toptal is that you'll be expected to work under those conditions.
It certainly weeds people out, and the whole "we'd rather weed good people out than let bad people in" mentality is probably understandable, it just rather felt like a "one size fits all approach".
Interestingly, looking at their site now, I read "we do not tolerate sub-par work or poor communication for any reason." Except, of course, when taking their entrance tests - no communication for clarification there. FWIW, tests were from codility.com
Otherwise, I've always found Toptal personal; even the next algo interview (a Skype-based one) was pleasant and friendly. Just one person's limited experience, though =)
I'll amend that - I had about a 5 minute conversation with someone pleasant at the very start who set up the web test.
Again, I get the idea of trying to weed people out, and this probably just comes across as sour grapes as I didn't make the cut. The tests just felt rather too abstract and nothing like any work I've done across multiple industries, company sizes and teams. I guess to someone who's (recently?) taken computer science courses, it's a walk in the park, and having never taken CS classes, I'm out of the running.
Indeed.
"Engineers will work during the preferred hours of the clients."
"For example, if the in-house engineers start their workday at 11am PST, our Eastern European Toptal engineers can often start working at 7pm EET and work through the night if that's what the client needs."
Requiring their engineers to sacrifice their health and personal life in this way sounds insane.
It seems from their site speed is the top priority, which makes sense given the context of "I just need ___ built/working ASAP".
I especially liked the example that was scraping data off a bunch of pages and returning a spreadsheet/csv of the results; that's a great example of something a smart business person that thinks algorithmically can identify, but can't/won't implement themselves. I actually wonder if it would work well to target this service specifically at algorithmically minded business folks.
Hope this works well for you - great idea, and looks well executed so far.
This website is one team making what the client asks for, there's no competition.
Unless that's what's happening behind the scenes.
I think something like that is what's happening behind the scenes. Maybe not the competition/spec work aspect, but certainly they're going to be outsourcing to loads of the cheapest workers they can find.
[1]https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/analyze.html?d=ilikerabbits....
You can't blame the capitalist for trying to make a buck here.
According to them, pricing might be a bit imbalanced in favor of the programmers and then they would love to see a bigger piece of the pie taken from us and transferred to them the brokers and a small chunk back to clients.
By working class, I mean "not the capitalist class." There is still a big difference between programming and say, boilermaking. But in 2015, tech companies are the factories of last century. (We even call them software shops!)
There is a spectrum of quality of course, and a lot of people take a lot of pride in their craft, especially when they do it well, noting the beauty of good code, etc. but at the end of the day, most people who make chairs, for example, are not the highly-paid turtlenecked Danish guy whose work is basically art that you can sit on...most people who make chairs work in factories and churn them out on an assembly line. So it is with programming.
To your point, it certainly is in the interest of those who hire programmers to pay them as little as possible, given the nature of the economic system we find ourselves in. Consider also the trend of startups paying sub-market salaries and compensating with equity. The startup route certainly looks like a way to do programming while freeing yourself from the will of The Man (I'm being tongue-in-cheek here, but you understand the vibe, I hope), but when you get right down to it, it's more of the same. Instead of corporate execs, you have investors. Instead of middle management, you have founders. The programmer is still just the programmer.
I don't know from where in my reply did you get this notion that I was implying that we developers are/should be classified as capitalists.
Anyway, what's important is for you to distinguish between the concepts of labor as a commodity and the commoditization of labor.
These marketplaces start out as facilitators in the market to bring more efficiency and vibrancy, increase overall transaction volume and value but over time they tend to get parasitical and feed off every "host" they could infect.
So, basically my comment was a protest and critique of this specific business model of marketplaces and not to debate whether programmers have to join ranks with the bourgeoisie or not.
But if you wanna debate capitalist societies, technological unemployment and the alarmingly increasing income inequality and the overhoarding behavior of resources by and with the aid of the bankers worldwide, that's a whole new thread to engage in.
Could you explain what you mean when you say these marketplaces tend to get parasitical? I'm not sure I understand what that process entails.
I think you get the picture by now.
But one might make the point that all this means is we were paying too much for grunt work before these marketplaces showed up...
Wage slavery, the illusion of labor and career derived self worthiness, the quasi monopoly of labor and the pursuit of monetary gain as the principal ideals providing meaning to life in this age, and finally holding our whole lives hostage to increasingly harsh labor conditions just for the capitalists to increase their wealth and consolidate their power over us, all of these notions must be re-opened to discussion in society given that capitalism is entering a new soul-crushing phase that is gonna leave many victims in the world that sadly would have been saved if not for our complicity in one way or another to demand and fight for our rights and our fair share in resources on this planet.
That's like saying 'phone user' is a working class profession, and the ability to talk on the phone is a commodity.
Knowing how to code is an abstract skillset, and being a programmer doesn't define your social class, it's what you do with that ability.
Do you work together with a recruiting company? One can imagine that work seeking programmer have to deliver "homework exercises" that could be anonymised tasks of your site.
Check out the fine print for what you're giving away here.