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Comment by jzelinskie | Hacker News Reader

There are also stories of people dying and the locals dumping their bodies elsewhere so that they don't ruin others experiences or stop people from coming to try the 'Medicine'. IIRC, the primary drug in Ayahuasca is DMT, which can be acquired other ways (that are less likely to make you puke) than drinking their jungle juice.

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Yeah, that happened. There's another center in the jungle I know of that changes its name every time they have a guest die. And I've heard stories of "shamans" who add a paralytic to the dose they give attractive young female guests...

But you know what? Those are the exceptions. I've taken ayahuasca dozens of times, and am booked for another trip to Peru next month. I've been fortunate only to work with reputable people, and have consistently only met others in my travels that have also worked with reputable people.

Please don't judge a tradition that's thousands of years old, and actually remarkably safe — with a few caveats, that the reputable folks will screen for — on the basis of a couple of cretins who look at the plants and the gringo tourists and just see dollar signs.

All that kind of shadiness is a consequence of prohibition -- since it's illegal, black and grey markets staffed by crooks and irresponsible flaky types fill the vendor niche. Without prohibition you could go to a professionally run center and take pharmaceutically pure DMT+MAOI instead of shaman piss, and do so with experienced genuinely psychologically educated guides and with modern medical care available in case of a reaction.

I disagree. It's legal in Peru, where all of the cases I listed occurred. (Technically, it's a gray area where, in the case of indigenous practitioners working on foreign guests, the law literally has nothing to say — neither legal nor illegal, but tolerated because tourism dollars. Indigenous folks treating indigenous folks is black-letter legal, and protected.) It's not prohibition, but rather greed and predation, that create most of the harms that have happened in ayahuasca practice in the jungle.

I've never done it, but I have a strong sense that pharmahuasca would be cold, sterile, and missing some of the je ne sais quoi that the "shaman piss" [1] experience offers. I'm sure it would still be a valuable experience, and one I'd be open to exploring, but drinking trees works well enough for me, thanks.

I mean, sure you can puke (I often do, sometimes several times in the course of a night), and it tastes horrible, and your sweat smells like tree bark at the end of the night — let alone the end of the week. That's just the process, though, and "optimizing" it out would probably also remove many of the things that are actually among the most valuable (for me, and everyone else who does this more than once with whom I've spoken) aspects.

EDIT: footnote added.

[1] Interestingly, in one of the earliest-documented shamanic traditions, tribes on the Siberian steppe would use amanita muscaria mushrooms, which are visionary, but also mildly toxic. The shaman would take a shaman-sized dose, and journey, then collect his urine (which still contains threshold doses of psychoactive metabolites), and serve that to his "patients".

You beat me to the story about fly agaric being distributed to the tribe through the shaman's piss. :)

It's prohibition in Wastern countries, which drives a "drug tourism" industry that distorts local markets and encourages that kind of "tourist trap" predation. Prohibition tends to export the corruption it breeds.

I agree about set and setting. The "clinics" I picture are probably not what that word normally conjures up.

I take your point, and don't disagree, but there's an element of the gestalt of the experience that calls for its being done in its ethnic and ecological context. For many of the people I know through my time down there, the act of taking the journey to the jungle to do this work is an integral part of the process. That is to say, it's not just "jurisdiction shopping" (but by the same token, that doesn't mean there's none of that, either).

I don't disagree. It would be our shamanic experience, not theirs. It would have a different set, setting, gestalt, mythology, and symbolism around it.

I'd be fascinated to know then if certain underlying themes and insights would remain similar or not. So far the western experience with psychedelics does show some commonality with that of indigenous peoples-- it's common for people to report a kind of cosmic oneness experience, insights about their character, etc. But there are also unique cultural twists. Ours have a flavor reminiscent of Greek and Roman Dionysian and Bacchanalian ceremonies, and then there is stuff like:

http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/2006/06/podcast-042-–-“us...

>> Please don't judge a tradition that's thousands of years old

Somewhat off topic question but I'd like to ask anyway - How exactly do you know its thousands of years old ?

I'm not saying it isn't, but how do you know for sure ?

It is DMT + an MAOI which allows the DMT to not be destroyed when you drink it.

The MAOI has a prolonging and intensifying effect, and has psychedelic effects of it's own. Smoking DMT isn't the same as eating pharmahuasca, which isn't the same as drinking ayahuaska.

That said, it is very, very rare for anyone to have a reaction. The quality tours have trained medics in the village, and the villages are jammed deep in the forest like some of the hippy tours.

Smoking DMT is a very clean experience. It is intensely visual in nature and completely cerebral.

Pharma/Ayahuaska is a heavy body load as you drift in and out of the altered state often called "hyperspace".

I don't really recommend the MAOIs because of the complications they can cause, and you can have just as spiritual of an experience without drinking their "jungle juice". haha ;)

> The quality tours have trained medics in the village

Somehow I don't derive much reassurance from that. :\ I guess some people are just more comfortable rolling the dice with their brains than I am...

"I guess some people are just more comfortable rolling the dice with their brains than I am..."

I feel the same way with people who take pharmaceutical anti-depressants.

>"Somehow I don't derive much reassurance from that."

If you live in a major urban area, and hang around in the right circles, it's very likely you can find a local party with which to partake, and thus get to take advantage of top-notch medical care in case of emergency (if that's your worry).

Agreed, you don't need to go to South America. Good luck

> IIRC, the primary drug in Ayahuasca is DMT, which can be acquired other ways (that are less likely to make you puke) than drinking their jungle juice.

I strongly suspect that with psychedelics, the context in which they are taken is far more influential on the kind of experience you have than the actual neurochemical effects. A sugar pill given to you by a man in a white coat and a soothing bedside manner is going to have a bigger effect than the same pill given to you by your next-door neighbor the handyman.

The service these fake shamans are providing can be of value even though the shamans are fake.

It's currently an 'ayahuasca-boom' going on, that is taken advantage of by many locals who want to earn easy money. Another risk is that some of the shamans mix in other plants than the core ingredients, which can be dangerous. There is also the possibility of unwanted interactions with pharmaceuticals.

With proper research and preparation, the 'jungle juice' is remarkably safe to consume.

Not to mention you can legally buy all the supplies you need to make Ayahuasca at home in the States.

"We modern smart men have figured a way to have trippy experiences without puking and going into an uncomfortable jungle with this funny superstitious shamans, we are the best!" As if doing a hit of DMT was nearly the same thing as a proper Ayahuasca ceremony done with a shaman coming from a 10.000 years lineage. Sigh.

Of course it's not the same. For one thing there is a lot less bullshit involved in simply smoking DMT. Seriously though, there are a lot of factors involved but I'm sure going into the jungle to drink ayahuasca under supervision of some self-proclaimed shaman isn't the only reasonable or effective way to have your spiritual experience with DMT.

Yeah, lets listen to superstitious people!

Why appeal to the age of an authority? If there's anything measurably beneficial about Ayahuasca I'm certain it can be extracted into a precisely dosed pharmaceutical.

I doubt that anyone who has actually tried ayahuasca (or a similarly potent hallucinogen) both with a shaman and without would agree with you. Do you have any citations to back up this opinion?

The danger of your opinion is that it precludes research into things like drumming and chanting. Humans have been using rhythm to build a sense of community for thousands of years. Could there be something here for science? Could we learn how to help therapists and patients bond much faster?

I don't know these answers. Do you?

Oh interesting, I hadn't thought of this from a therapy point of view. Any time you mix spirituality and treatment my mind goes immediately to scam, which is what I assumed this was.

Any time there is treatment, there is spirituality. It's just that western medical approaches pretend there is none, whilst a lot of other approaches pretend there is more than there is.

The New Yorker wrote a good piece on the use mushrooms and hallucinogens (which are similar to ayahuasca) having the ability to improve mental illness, depression, addiction, etc. They are testing this is troopers who return from battle http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/02/09/trip-treatment

It doesn't sound like your definition of spirituality and my definition match at all. IMO, spirituality is understanding the significance of you, all of us, and the universe; it's empowerment of self, and understanding that we're all essentially "gods", able to change reality as long as we put our mind, and actions to it.

The shaman by him/herself won't do anything. Neither would the Ayahuasca on it's own. It's having the right combination of both (setting), and your intention (set) that leads to an amazing experience.

The funny thing is, the experience itself is not the most important thing.. it's what you do after the ceremony with your life, and how you change your lifestyle to make you happy.

Obviously, if the shaman isn't giving you the real tea, mixes stuff in, doesn't take care of you, and such, I'd call it a straight up scam.

> Yeah, lets listen to superstitious people!

If you like, you can think of it as a kind of placebo effect. Which, you may be able to imagine, can get really strong under the influence of psychedelics.

Disclaimer: I've never used Ayahuasca, but I did organise a few shroom trips, where I paid a lot of attention to the "set & setting". Compared to other times, it makes a lot of difference.

Also see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_and_setting

There is only been one documented case of that ever occurring. I've taken Ayahuasca on several occasions and have only puked once which is very normal as it is part of the purging process. In fact, I prefer taking DMT orally (via Ayahuasca) as the experience is much easier to control even though it lasts longer compared to smoking pure DMT.

Citations please?

In the interest of fairness, I will share a few decent articles, then give my opinion:

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/canada/jennifer-logan-s-death-in-pe...

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ayahuasca/ayahuasca_death.s...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/24/justice/ayahuasca-death-kyle-n...

The first article is not about ayahuasca, but provides some excellent advice for spiritual seekers. The second is the best article. The third is CNN, but it is likely the incident the OP is talking about.

Ayahuasca and salvia both completely scare me. They are not meant to be administered recreationally, and they can both bring about some states that can lead to dangerous behaviours or permanent mental illness. However, if administered correctly by a well trained shaman, each have therapeutic qualities.

The problem is too many people with western dollars read Carlos Castaneda and embark in search of a shaman. And, there are many unscrupulous people who will say anything to make a buck.

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