Installing Windows 8 after 8 years of Linux
answers.microsoft.com
answers.microsoft.com
"Anyways, blame Intel and N-7265 wifi adapter you have in your laptop, not Microsoft. Windows does have a generic driver that works well most of their adapters, but seems like not all of them. That's a question for Intel, why is it not compatible."
This is just Linux guys' (me) scripted answer for people trying linux for the first time who has wifi problems. Things are really inverse now.
I live with Windows as the base install and virtualbox linux (arch + ubuntu).
I am so glad to be free of the Mac... My hardware is upgradeable again, the touchscreen is a real innovation, Excel opens instantaneously and when I want Unix, I use the linux vm, I am not tempted to use the strange halfway house that is the mac unix cli/packaging system with ports/homebrew on its back.
windows 8.1 is a bifurcated experience, but they tried to do something new... it feels like Apple desktop engineers only really do truly new stuff in desktop hardware (smaller, lighter, glue and solder) ... the software is pretty but way behind Gnome, KDE and Windows...
I was the biggest MS hater you could be 10 years ago.... now it is Apple that seems like the bad guy that isn't innovating now...
1: http://pdb.finkproject.org/pdb/package.php/apt 2: https://github.com/freebsd/pkg 3: https://github.com/kladd/pacman-osx
Let's begin with the most glaring difference: source distribution vs binary distribution. Installing my GNU Octave takes under a minute with yum or apt but hours or days with homebrew or macports.
Let's also proceed with how none of homebrew, macports or fink is native to Mac OS X, but is some tacked-on thing that most Mac OS X users are unfamiliar with (yeah, most Mac OS X users don't even know that a terminal exists or what to do with it). It does not control the entire OS, but only some packages, which are going to be installed in /usr/local or /opt or /opt/local. And woe betide the users, the same Mac OS X users who just learned that their OS has a command line, if they decide to use more than one of these package managers. Conflicting packages strewn all over their filesystem! Great fun trying to figure out which Python distribution is getting run and which Python packages are getting imported.
While we're on the topic of Unix unfamiliarity, let's also talk about simplicity. The typical user sees the following when told to install Xcode and run this, run that, set these environment variables, modify their .bashrc:
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2015/03/10/10598...
Now let's move on to "one day is a long time in brewland!" There is no promise of stability or attempt to make sure that all packages work together with each other. There is no stable distribution. If you're lucky, you might be able to check out specific git tags of each package, but this doesn't work for all packages, and you're expected to be updating your entire set of packages pretty much daily if you want to have "support". The instructions that worked yesterday for getting the software you want may not work today, because all of the packages moved under your feet overnight.
Let's finally also see what happens when they upgrade from one Mac OS X release to another: breakage everywhere. Some packages may need to be recompiled, some may no longer compile (hello there, LLVM bugs that prevent compilation of GNU Octave), or hours upon hours of copying or moving homebrew or macports trees around during an operating system upgrade.
Homebrew and macports are a parody of what Unix package management should look like, and fink doesn't have the maintainership that a GNU/Linux or BSD distro has.
(but I no longer use it)
Otherwise I spend my time in other systems anyway, so I cannot properly judge it.
There is separate fullscreen support that developers can add if they wish, but that requires extra code on their part because once fullscreened, the desktop environment handles each fullscreened app as its own virtual desktop.
I wish you could look over my shoulder as I use OS X, you may not be so convinced its 'simple'
Regarding OS X, you're right to criticize the green button. In OS X Yosemite, the old unpredictable Zoom behavior has been dropped, and instead it toggles full screen.
It's funny how our usage patterns are determined by our OS experience. I don't know any long-term Mac users who used the Zoom button; that seems to be a thing that Windows users do when they try a Mac. On the other hand, I reposition and resize windows frequently, but I rarely see Windows or Linux users do that.
I use BetterSnapTool [2] for window management. You can drag a window to some edge for quick resize/snap options, similar to Windows.
Personally, I use Vim-inspired bindings to move windows around quickly.
E.g. Command-Shift-J snaps a window to the left half; Command-Shift-K to the right. And Command-Shift-M to fully maximize a window. To snap windows to each of the four corners, I use the same pattern followed by 1,2 or 3,4. There’s lots of useful shortcuts you can configure, like sending windows back and forth between two monitors. Or just moving the mouse to reposition a window--or resize it--by holding down some key. I believe you can also customize the behavior when double-clicking the title bar.
As a user of i3/Xmonad on linux, this setup works well for me on OS X; I rarely use the track-pad to move windows around. And the iTerm hot-key shortcut toggles a popup terminal on the top right corner of my screen (or wherever you like).
[1] http://www.mediaatelier.com/CheatSheet/ [2] https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/bettersnaptool/id417375580?m...
The first part was to get an image to install from. Windows offers .iso downloads on their website[0], but you need to enter the product key for the computer to access it. I used a third-party tool to dig this out of the registry, but attempting to use this key on the website gave a non-descript error-code. After googling around, I found that it wasn't giving me the download because it was an OEM-license (or something), since it came installed on the DELL computer.
Luckily my Dad had kept the disc that came with the computer, and I used this to reinstall windows. However, like the OP, I was missing drivers for a handful of things, including the built-in wireless and wired network adapters. Luckily, before reinstalling I'd found a folder on the C drive called "Drivers" which looked important, and had backed this onto a USB drive.
The point is, the whole process took much longer than expected due it being...Windows. The DRM and driver issues would likely be totally absent if I were installing linux. And the whole reason I was doing this in the first place was to remove adware, which is barely ever if at all a problem on linux!
As for getting a clean slate back, Windows 8 has a Reset function that restores the system to a fresh install state while keeping data intact. Also much easier than hunting for a recovery DVD or an ISO.
Please note all those pre-installed apps in the background of the last picture, which you can't get rid of unless a) you remove them one-by-one and clean registry manually or b) download a fresh copy of Windows from Microsoft but then you lose some drivers for some reason and need to hunt for them.
After tweaking, restarting, deleting stuff, modifying registry and so on, I could finally install the 8.1 update.
That's why I'm so excited about .NET going full cross-platform (I've been developing primarily on Windows since nearly 10 years, mind you).
I'm often reinstalling because as a developer I want to try out the newer platforms. I gave Windows 8.1 a try recently. Fresh install and Windows Update says there's nothing to update. Knowing that's BS, I force it to refresh -- after a significant wait suddenly there's 1GB of updates. Really? Why did I just download a 3.5GB ISO that is 1GB out of date? I press on and force the downloads to start because a safe system is a priority to me.
The downloads take forever to start. When they eventually do start, they randomly stop (no ethernet activity) for random periods of time. All this time I'm twiddling my thumbs wondering if there's some kind of "intelligent" downloader that is slowing down because I'm trying to do something else on the system. Eventually they finish downloading and installing and the system reboots. After the reboot... I have more hundreds of MBs more of updates waiting for me. WTF?
I go through this process 2 or 3 more times, and now I'm just left with "optional" updates. Curious, I click on the 'more information' link to hit the Microsoft website (because for some reason the Windows Update UI just shows the most completely useless generic text for each update). Apparently the 'optional' updates are "rollups"... surely that's important?! Who knows, because Windows Update packages are opaque blobs.
So I go ahead and install the optional updates. Reboot. Now everything is good, right? Nope, go take a look at the Windows Update History - it turns out a bunch of updates actually failed to install at some point? It looks like they might have successfully installed later... or did they? At this point I don't even care.
Compare with the Linux (Ubuntu, but I'm sure others qualify too) experience: apt-get update; apt-get upgrade. If there's an issue I get informed immediately and because the updates are per-package it's clear whether or not I should care -- no opaque blobs here. When it's done, I know it's done and there won't be any more magical updates mysteriously appearing. I know I can run the update/upgrade in the background while I use the machine for other things. I just don't understand why Microsoft can't get the update experience right!
Heh. My workstation in my cubicle at the office is getting a hard drive replacement right now because some update left it stuck at startup, saying "Windows is configuring things. Please do not turn off your computer." (Or something to that effect.) I get it; if it takes longer than 15 minutes to fix, core IT is going to re-image the drive, but now I have to reinstall Visual Studio and SQL Server, and patch, and patch, and patch. And always be afraid that it will just happen again some day.
Well, I've known of shops where IT keeps complete role-specific (e.g., developer, etc.) or even individual-computer images rather than just generic base images. Or at least have IT track software installed per-user and handle rebuilds even if they use a generic base image. Where I work they don't, unfortunately, but I would never not call that out as a problem.
Common practices and good practices are often not the same thing.
Just remember that it's only the web stack. No part of the Windows widget/form libraries (to make GUI apps) is being opened. I see this confusion a lot.
I've often had to download a network driver (both WiFi and wired Ethernet) separately and get it onto the machine via physical media, bluetooth or IRDA.
As for software updates: Yes there's a load of Lenovo crapware and yes it's best to just do a clean install. I'm writing this on a T430s which I did a clean install on. I then installed the Lenovo software I actually use:
Power management driver
Active protection system (I replaced the DVD drive with a SSHD)
Fingerprint recognition thing
The lesson when it comes to installing an OS is: Be prepared. Either be somewhere where you can download your NIC (or WiFi NIC) software separately and get it onto the machine (it's too often NIC drivers that are missing, which is pretty much the worst thing to be missing!) or get them downloaded first, after finding out what's in the machine.
As for the developer account thing: I don't know why that is, but it annoyed me too. They should really not do things like that. They should also stop the push to get everyone to log into VS using a Microsoft account, as that's plain annoying.
Finally: "I start Subleme[sic] Text , download some npm packages and started writing code ."
Installing Sublime text, npm (and npm packages) on Windows is just as easy as on Linux.
With .NET becoming easier to work with in Linux, I'm now considering a move back to Linux on my laptop, so perhaps I'll write an equivalent article on attempting to move the opposite way.
But Ubuntu comes with drivers for all the network devices it supports, and when it does updates, it does them all in one go with a single reboot required. You install, get online, update, and you're done. A base Windows install often will require external media to get online to get updates, and the process is a painstaking series of rebooting and re-launching/re-starting windows update.
> Installing Sublime text, npm (and npm packages) on Windows is just as easy as on Linux.
I think the point is that he tried doing it The Microsoft Way, and that it was full of barriers and frustration. Of course you can use other tools, but Microsoft tools on a Microsoft system ought to be easy, right?
It's also odd that Windows 8.1, released much earlier than Ubuntu 14.04, didn't have a NIC driver that worked with the OP's device, when Ubuntu did. Obviously they put drivers through WHQL, but still, it'd be great if they could have a fast track for at least a very basic driver to get you connected.
I'd really like to see most devices which have some 'common' functions be able to function with a minimal feature set without requiring a special driver. I believe displays have been able to do this for years with VESA mode, (some) webcams with UVC. If this could happen for NICs, it would make life so much easier.
Yes, Microsoft tools on a Microsoft system should be easy. I think they should have a team who sit and start from scratch every day, installing the OS, getting the tools, starting to work - and see what the experience is like. It's as if they never test this.
The worst part is if you want to use Skype - don't use the version of Skype that comes bundled with Windows! It forces you to change your Windows login into a MSN login and will only run while in the foreground (fullscreen). Total crap!
I had to change my login back to a local login and then download a "normal" version of Skype that also works in the background and doesn't force me to use MSN to log into windows.
That's just one of the many annoyances I ran into. I'm somewhat looking forward to Windows 10 - it can only get better (oh no, I said it!).
This is just /. style flamebait, no idea why it's on the front page of HN.
You can buy signature edition Windows machines directly from Microsoft that are crapware free, which is what I did a few months ago.
It's just utterly confusing to figure out how to do nearly anything on the OS. There are all sorts of noisy visual cues that look like they communicate state or flow but don't, as well as many seemingly ill-conceived UX "modes" that bewilder me and that just doesn't happen for me with tech stuff.
Want to get to the control panel? There appear to be several different ones and you have to hover your mouse in just the right place on the screen in order to coax a bar to slide in and show you a few options. There are several such bars, each triggered by some kind of mouse hover.
Since I'm ranting, even the usability on the modern IE site is horrid.
It seems that the idea is to have one environment for tablets and for 'normal' users and another for "pro" users who care about advanced control panels. Even if you accept two entirely different UX metaphors coexisting as reasonable, it still boggles the mind how anyone could expect normal users to figure out those strange mouse hovers.
It's just such a bewilderingly odd user experience. 8.1 cleans up a few of the biggest warts but is still (IMHO) a UX disaster and I would actively discourage anyone from deciding to use it.
Maybe the best business decision for MS would be to just copy OSX as much as possible and then let the legal department deal with any infringement claims.
It works both ways. My boss is a Dev that's been developing in Windows for a similar amount of time, and he's being exposed to Linux for the last 3 years due to the project we're both working on, and I can understand his frustration.
It's a different mind set, really. Emacs & the CLI are second class citizens on Windows. Big IDE's are second class citizens on Linux. Not too mention 20 years of experience solving problems and knowing where to look for answers....
I haven't used Emacs on Windows, but Powershell is the best shell I've used (I used to use zsh on Linux). There's also console2 and conemu if you want to avoid the built in cmd-derivative, which is rather unpleasant.
I'm wondering why a dev like Jonathan Blow seems to use mainly emacs for development on his Windows machine. He seems to be a developer with a focus on the Windows platform.
Also nice to start to read from Linux natives being confused with Windows. Oh how the worm has turned!
I've a foot in both camps, but any serious computing happens on Linux. With the exceptions of Excel and some niche Win-only software I work with.
I have ended up running Win7 with a few 'Linuxes' in VMs. One main one, really though. #! for those who care... sadly recently discontinued.
The main reason I stick with Win7 is a) legacy reasons of my own, I suppose we could call them, and b) translation software. The FOSS alternatives aren't quite there yet (for heavy use), although I'd love to sit down for a few months/years and try to create one. A vi-like CAT tool that produced translation memories and lightning quick concordance... that's the dream.
Similar to Macha's POV, sometimes you just need to work with people who have no concept of free computing.
It's .Net software so it should run in theory under Linux. Certainly under a VM, potentially with Mono. I haven't tried either.
Though, I have been using FreeBSD as a base for 10+ years, Linux at work and with the arrival of Windows 8.1 I have switched to base of 8.1+Hyper-V+FreeBSD as a VM. This perfectly works on the Lenovo hardware (which I prefer) and I am amazed how Microsoft improved, since the year of 1992+, when I have discovered their products.
As a linux user, I expect the leading commercial products to be at least on par with what a relatively standard linux distribution gives you. But no, apparently a vanilla ISO of the OS is not enough, you need more.
The guy in the post said that he didn't want to install the crappy Lenovo software from the restore partition. If he had he could have saved the drivers and then re-installed.
If I wiped the machine and didn't have drivers on hand I would expect something not to work...with any OS.
You are clearly a Linux "advocate" and you don't really care about this except to the extent that you can denigrate Windows to make your "side" seem superior.
I don't use computers that way. I try to learn how things actually work. When they don't work like how I would assume they work, I make a note for next time, and move on. I don't see the failings of some nameless developer somewhere in the bowels of a company or an open source project as indicative of , or representative of, some larger plot or plan that impinges my freedoms, rights, or prerogative. It's just another thing in a sea of things to remember about working with imperfect man-made tools to perform other tasks that I'm actually interested in. The software that manages my disk access and video card doesn't convey a sense of righteousness to me and I don't identify myself by or through it.
- In order to (re-)install Windows you need your drivers
- If you have a previous install, then you need to copy the drivers and keep them
- If you don't, you're screwed and it's your fault
I don't think it is normal for a consumer OS to require this step, especially since Linux which is not a consumer-oriented OS does it. I'm not saying it's some part of a plan to impeach freedom/my rights/whatever, actually I just think it's completely in line with the expectation that consumers will not install their OS, only OEMs will, and no extra effort is made for those who want to tweak their computer; it is expected that computers are sold with Windows and that people don't change that. Fair enough, it's totally aligned with their strategy.
Now I'm not saying you don't need any external drivers in Linux (looking at you, NVidia), but in my experience (same for many people, including the guy from the post) you can get to work with a bare ISO. I'd expect every commercial OS to be at least as good as that.
> You are clearly a Linux "advocate" and you don't really care about this except to the extent that you can denigrate Windows to make your "side" seem superior.
Can we grow up ? For everything I'm personally interested in, yes, Linux clearly is better. But for the wider world, no one can seriously believe Linux is able to replace Windows, and for a good reason. It is not superior nor is it inferior (and clearly the ease with which you can install it is irrelevant compared to how you actually use it)
In short: don't look for a "Us vs Them" when there is none. I'm pointing what I think is a weakness in Windows, that doesn't make it weak or inferior.
You can expect whatever you want. That doesn't make it likely or even reasonable. That's kind of my point. You say that it's not set up for people that tweak their computer...I build systems and don't have that problem because I learned how it actually works and don't really get hung up on how I wish it worked.
I have it even worse: every time I plug my Razer mouse into a different port, the driver installer comes up. I've NEVER downloaded the thing, and it came to me through Windows Update. I always say "Never Install" but it always comes back, but the mouse functions fine without.
Seems pretty clear to me that he's not confusing the Lenovo stuff with Windows.
In short, I'm quite pleased with win 8.1. I like the tile stuff ok. VBox with Mint is fast enough for development work (no usb 3 support yet). But for the first time in years I can confidently print and scan and really get full use out of my hardware.
The drawback is crapware. I apparently downloaded something called Pokki which isn't really a virus (some people might have a use for it) but which is pretty hard to get rid of (maybe not for Win types but it took me a while). I don't think they tried to be malicious- everything was in an easily discoverable folder and their website tells you where it is, the just have an auto-start process that you have to delete after starting in 'safe mode.'
Other than that it's fine. I follow the same security practices: I have an admin account that I don't use very much but I use for installing 'global,' trusted software like vbox and Office (Libre/MS). I do my work under a non-priviledged account. Etc. Oh, and I did use the Norton virus thingy, just in case.
Overall my experience with Win 8.1 has been positive.
It's true Intel network drivers suck. Not only WiFi. I have to transfer the Ethernet network driver for the desktops in the office via USB, as any Windows Install does not have the driver in the disk. And this is for wired networking.
Nowadays most network hardware is done by Intel. So it sucks everywhere.
In contrast, Ubuntu is totally plug and play. I have an external USB drive that can boot in the desktops and in the Dell laptop. Even with different video cards (AMD vs Intel), it just works.
I can change the sound output device with a single click in Ubuntu. The laptop boots in 'secure mode' and Ubuntu is recognized by the UEFI loader.
But not everything is perfect in Linux.
The accelerometer (or whatever hardware that autodetects the laptop's rotation) only works in Windows. Then, for reading comics, I boot to Windows.
The video performance is better in Windows. I always get screen tearing in Ubuntu, while I get perfect playback in Windows (unless I use display mirroring and output to HDMI and the internal display at the same time).
If I want good FullHD video, I have to boot into Windows (and output to only one screen).
Not really comparable to Visual Studio. One is a notepad while the other is an IDE.
His goal, what he wanted to try out, was creating Windows Phone apps, and for this the big complex IDE is was a prerequisite, and this prerequisite caused him to fail reaching his goal.
Contrast this to other development tasks, like web-development, and the need for these complex tools went away and he could be instantly productive. Does that say anything about developing Windows Phone apps?
It's definitely not a direct apples to oranges comparison, but when making Windows Phone apps gets its complexity way beyond web-apps, that is entirely something within Microsoft's control.
Not long apparently. Once the setup process started asking me for an e-mail address with no option to skip I gave up and put Linux Mint on it. Keep doing your thing, Micro$oft.
It is there, but it's (obviously deliberately) hidden behind one hell of a UX antipattern. I guess they want people to use Microsoft accounts more than they want people to be able to use Windows.
And Microsoft accounts are still stuck using only 16-character passwords (!), and I'm not completely clear on what does and does not get 'synced' - if it's my %AppData%, I don't trust SkyDrive, so that's definitely out.
(Ubuntu is very good on this front. Debian not so much but that's down to politics not technology. Windows is still a hot mess)
There is always something to install which is not there, I have to install tons of drivers, Putty, WinCSP, a decent terminal (cmd.exe is just unusable), WAMP, python, various python libraries, perl, node.js (lots of front-end tools needs it now), Cygwin (otherwise it's impossible to do anything with the base programs), wget.exe, 7zip, notepad++ (the built-in notepad does not handle newlines properly), git, setup bash aliases, emacs, Firefox ... (the list can be expanded).
So yeah, you can code on Windows, but you are basically fighting with the system all the time to install everything you need.
I have been using xBSD and OS X for the last 10 years, but have been confronted with the need to do some financial modelling on Windows (as a side note, I guess this is not "serious" computing, according to some comments here).
Attempt #1: Try the SciPy/Anaconda stack. Mostly OK, but Python's Windows support is an afterthought. Anaconda is especially sweet, but getting any kind of serious Python distribution running in a corporate environment is a pain. Integration being the main source of misery.
Attempt #2: Try F#. Sweet mother of god, everything runs, compiles, does what I expect it to do and efficiency is awesome. Visual Studio 2013 is although an IDE, but nowhere near a bloated, monstrous carcass like Eclipse; or in fact not as bloated as some Emacs setups I've seen. Only "downside": the need to buy a couple of books on .Net and F#.
The moral of the story: Microsoft has an enormous capacity to create some ground breaking stuff and then f- it up completely by bad commercial decisions. Thankfully it seems, they've started to fix that.
I can understand the first two, but can't seem to understand one who has 8 years of xp with linux is able to generalize "ubuntu" with all of the other linux operating systems.
Quite the waste of my time to read this, nothing gained for me other than the thought of "hackernews top posts are going bad" sadly.
It's pretty clear that he distinguishes Microsoft from Lenovo. There's nothing specific that I can point to, but it seems that he knows the difference between Linux and Ubuntu, also.
And Ubuntu is a really distinguished linux distro for its ease of usability and general driver compatibility; not like most of other greatly used linux distros, which care more of power users than everyday users.
It's why I've had my parents using Xubuntu for the past 4 years. There haven't been any Big Problems. Calling Xubuntu Ubuntu might be cheating, but it's the same thing minus Unity.