I've written that before on HN and got massively downmodded, hopefully that doesn't happen to you.
If you are actually guilty then keep your mouth closed. But if you are not guilty then staying quiet is not necessarily to your benefit.
If you are actually guilty then keep your mouth closed. But if you are not guilty then staying quiet is not necessarily to your benefit.
It sounds like grandparent didn't go to jail, so even though he calls it a "bad tactic" it seems to have worked out fine.
The people who actually know this stuff, i.e. lawyers and cops, all universally advise people not to talk to the police without counsel. Never have I seen one add the qualifier "but it's fine if you're not guilty." I'm inclined to take their word for it.
What's the right thing to do here? Shut up and demand a lawyer before you'll answer any questions?
You hear about a shooting in your neighborhood on the radio. Walking to the subway, you see a person with a gun run down an alley. At the subway station a cop asks you if you've seen anything suspicious.
What's the right thing to do here? Shut up and demand a lawyer before you'll answer any questions?
Personally, I don't want to live in a society in which no one helps anyone because of fear.
It's worth keeping in mind that Ken White is a defense attorney, writing from a particular perspective, which may not cover all possible situations. His advice is great if you are the subject of a criminal investigation. Most people are not subjects of criminal investigations.
Specific to traffic stops, neither officers nor attorneys recommend shutting up and demanding a lawyer as the first move. They recommend: make the officer feel safe, be polite, don't lie, and decline a search if requested.
Editing since I can't reply to rosser (what's the point of a discussion forum if I can't have a discussion?):
My point is that writing as either a defense attorney or a prosecutor, his posts take a more a narrow view of police interactions than the entirety of how someone might interact with the police. I doubt he would recommend against reporting a crime if you are the victim or a witness, for instance, or if he did, I doubt he would find many peers to agree with him.
"Keep your head down, never talk to a cop," is certainly a strategy for getting through life, but it's not necessarily globally optimal.
It's also worth keeping in mind that he's a former federal prosecutor. He knows of what he speaks, and you would do very well to heed his counsel.
It's economics. People respond to incentives. I am not incentivized to help the cops because it's never going to be better for me to do so. I'll act differently when they are different, get me?
.
(You make a good point about traffic stops, though it speaks remarkably of the shitty nature of police interactions that somehow it's on you to make an officer feel safe. Never mind that an officer will regularly attempt to make you feel threatened or unsafe to get you to say something stupid...)
You shouldn't talk to police in the situations you describe. And of course we don't want to live in this type of society. It would be great if police behaved differently.
I think you make good points. People say things like "don't ever talk to a police without lawyer", because they want to make a political point.
I am not American, and not resident in the US, but I do not believe that a total "I don't talk to police without lawyer, ever" is really wise. Either in US or elsewhere - you have to understand your surroundings.
My latest interaction with an American police officer was on a business trip on September 12, 2001. Independent of the bad TV shows the previous day, I was driving to the local office where I was visiting. Boss from Europe called me on my cell phone. I didn't think it was a good idea to speak on the phone while driving, so I took the exit from highway and stopped on the curb of a smaller road. After talking for a moment, I noticed a police car stopped next to me. I rolled down the window, and the police asked me why I stopped there. I told him, to speak on the phone. He told me to move over because I would be blocking other traffic. I hadn't noticed it but he was right. I said "sorry, I didn't notice, I'll get moving", put the phone away and got moving. End of story.
Instead of telling him "Speaking on the phone", should I have responded with "No comment, I want my lawyer"? That would have been absurd, and probably a very good reason for this officer to get suspicious of me, possibly starting to check my papers - which I'm sure he's the right to do - and possibly ticket me for simply breaking the traffic law and then being a prick about it.
Being a witness in general is a real pain in butt in any case, particularly if you are witnessing a non-trivial crime.
You're right that nobody recommends demanding a lawyer for a traffic stop. But they do recommend not talking to the officer beyond the minimum requested. For example, it's standard for an officer who catches you speeding to ask "do you know how fast you were going?" If you give a number that's over the posted limit, then they have you admitting to breaking the law. If you give a number that's under the limit and they know you were going faster then they have you lying to an officer.
I don't think it's worth keeping in mind that Ken White is a defense attorney because I've seen this exact advice from many places, both lawyers and cops, and there's never any disagreement. I have seen cops say that traffic stops will go a lot easier if you're nice and polite to the officer. But that does not mean you have to answer all their questions. Immediately shouting "I demand a lawyer!" is a good way to get written up for every minor infraction the officer can find, but nicely declining to answer questions you're not required to answer is fine.
Edit: this is literally what happens in Ken's hypothetical story. If the subject didn't lie about the phone call, they couldn't be charged with a false statement.
No. LAWYER UP AND SHUT UP.
If the prosecutor wants to push it, almost any interaction with the police can be made to seem incriminating.
"If you give me six lines written by the hand of the most honest of men, I will find something in them which will hang him." – Cardinal Richelieu, 1641
It seems law enforcement never really changes.
The police version of "lie" is to state something that actually is untrue.
The difference is important because human memory is fallible. You can "lie to the police" while saying nothing but what you believe to be the truth.
"It's OK to talk to the police as long as you don't lie" may be true, but it's also completely useless, because it's impossible to guarantee.
Of course, the officer can be asked their side of the story, which will be accepted as an eyewitness (single indirection).
So anything you say can (and will) be used against you y the prosecution, but almost never in your own defense. Many people understand at least the basic concept that your words can be used against you, but the fact that those same words cannot help you in most cases is not addressed very often.
(this topic is discussed in the famous - and VERY HIGHLY recommended viewing - video that hoaTeRo linked to, "Dont(sic) Talk to Police" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc ) )