Macbook screen coating issues
staingate.org
staingate.org
Called them and had an endless loop of
- "I think this is a manufacturing fault"
- "Cracks in the screen are ALWAYS accidental damage and not covered under warranty"
- "But I didn't have an accident with it, so ..."
- "Cracks in the screen are ALWAYS accidental damage and not covered under warranty"
... and so on and so on.
Now, after the most recent graphics board meltdown I am on an XPS13 with Ubuntu, and I can honestly say that apple are off my shopping list for good.
This is our operations team's way of issuing karma for years of pain if that's any consolation :)
I personally had the same experience as GP (but ages ago): Bought an iBook G3 that had multiple main board faults every few months (that was a problem of the whole series). In Germany you can get your money back if a product has the same fault multiple times (i.e. the manufacturer is unable to fix the issue). Both Apple and Gravis, the retailer, acted so horribly despite the perfectly clear law and a clear paper trail of the multiple defects that I had to hire a lawyer to get my money back. Of course I'll never buy anything Apple again - not because of the defects (as said, that can happen to every manufacturer) but rather because of the awful response.
My MBP is now 6 years old, still trying to get my employer to replace it. The only problems I had were the HDD going bad (I replaced it with SSD) and the trackpad no longer works (i spilled a drink on it once or twice). I also dropped is in the street a couple times which could have contributed to the HDD failure.
Overall I've never owned any other devices this long with continuous use. With all that being said they are going to need to change their approach on this issue or they risk damaging that support reputation.
I've had some terrible experience with Lenovo around 2010, so this may be hit or miss, but Apple is certainly not the only company that can provide decent service.
[Japan] One day the fan of my Latitude started making a clicking noise so I called the service, scheduled a visit for the next Saturday and got the fan replaced, even though the noise didn't occur when the serviceman was testing it. In the process of replacing the fan he noticed my case is missing two rubber feet and promised to send me a replacement. A week later I got a whole bottom part of the case in mail.
[Poland] My dad had some problems with BSODs on his Vostro and after a bit of back and forth with the service they replaced the whole motherboard for him. Almost 3 years into warranty, 1 month before it expired.
If I ever decide to go back to Windows or Linux I'm going with Dell and their NBD warranty.
I know that a lot of info is out there. In your case, any comparable experience with Dell support?
I'm not sure whether or not this all falls under your definition of "support," but it was enough to send me back to the macbook that the dell was supposed to replace.
Also, this was 3 years ago. Maybe they've gotten better.
I've heard everything just works for Ubuntu on the machine. I was planning to run linux in a VM first to see how usable it is then go native if I must.
For all of these I had the next day on site support, and a tech came over and fixed stuff every time with no problems. Now that I'm switching to a MacBook, I'm actually kinda sad to be potentially parting with the computer while it's getting fixed.
In any case, I shall report back on how they handle it. Fired off a twitter message to @DellCares and they asked me for the service tag. Go on Dell, impress me!
Whilst they use ground-breaking advanced engineering, thermal design and materials and all that marketing garb, I feel merely like the pilot of an experimental aircraft about to tumble out of the sky at any moment.
The last three Apple computers I bought ended up being returned on warranty and the replacement sold due to electrical, thermal, software and quality issues. Fortunately we're covered here in the UK for 6 years with a small argument but none of the machines lasted more than 12 months in normal "at home" usage.
Now that's not exclusive to Apple but I don't expect to have these issues on a premium product. £183/month for a computer over its usable lifetime is a lot of money.
On the side I fix Apple kit for people. I recently replaced the screen on a 2008 MBP which had failed. It was a joy to do. I can't help anyone with a Retina MBP onwards though; warranty return only. That's a big red flag for buying any recent kit.
Second hand plastic ThinkPads now. Not had any problems for a couple of years and to replace the entire unit is less than a 2010 MBP screen and they're easy to replace bits in. #00 Philips and a swiss army knife and you're sorted.
And how does that affect their day-to-day usability?
I'm a big fan of new and shiny, but my primary laptop is a Dell Inspiron I bought in 2006/2007, because I'm also a big fan of using things until they break. I popped an SSD into it a couple years ago and it is very snappy and performs perfectly well as a development machine, web browser, and (small) VM host. In fact, it's actually snappier than my i7 desktop for most tasks because of the SSD. So why would a secondhand (and probably newer) ThinkPad not be a suitable alternative?
The biggest downsides of having an older laptop are that the screen is a mere 1680x1050 and it's pretty thick, probably a around a full inch when closed. The former is still not terrible by today's standards (what's with the absurd popularity of 1366x768?), but I do consider it to fall into the bare minimum of acceptability, and the latter is simply not a problem for me - it's not enough weight to bother me on my daily 1.2 mile walk into work and most of the time it's sitting on a desk or on my lap, not anywhere space-constrained.
There’s no shortage of consumer protection return periods, it seems - I’ve not heard 6 years before, where is that decided?
This is also described on Apple's website at http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
But the law is the law. If you threaten civil action they'll either acquiesce before the case gets to court, or be forced to acquiesce after it gets to court, because there's no defence.
They show you a receipt that states the full price replacement and make you sign it and say I must pay. I say no, its within the warranty period. Twice they have then said "unfortunately you did not buy it from Apple so they cannot perform a retailer's replacement" but in both cases I had (from their website). Once they then said "did you buy from Apple business?" I accidentally said yes and they tried to use that to extract payment. In each case, once you have the dodged the bullets, the genius finally says a prepared statement along the lines of "it is out of warranty so it will cost £xxx but because <insert excuse> we will waive the charges this time". The <insert excuse> is something like "safety reasons".
It is just so damn deceitful. They are not "waiving charges" and they introduced multiple pressure points to unfairly obtain payment. What really happened was they were compelled to replace a 14 month old product they borked with a software update. I have no idea what the thing with size 6 pt. text and full price listed was that they make me sign. I have to assume they train and incentivise Apple Shop staff to trick you into paying for replacements. Scumbags.
What was proper shit is the Genius Bar dude tore the original printed receipt in half for the initial purchase (handed over to act as proof of purchase) and wouldn't issue a receipt for the replacement machine. Total PITA from a receipt/warranty/tax claim POV and probably completely illegal.
I flipped my shit, spoke to the store manager and was simply asked to leave and there was nothing more they would do.
So yes, scumbags. Makes Dixons and Argos in the 1990s look good.
Edit: ironically my boss just came back from lunch after flipping his shit at them because they want to charge him £200 to replace his iPhone 6 after the WiFi packed in.
Apple has had an overheating problem for the last two to three generations. They used to design the MBP at least to be a mobile workhorse so heat was more important than sleekness, but then their designers got ahold of it and now it is an overheating mess.
Plus the discoloring this thread is talking about is likely due to WHERE Apple hid the vent (i.e. within the screen latch, so it is "invisible," but jets hot air up the front of the LCD constantly causing the glue to fail per the OP).
I've owned recent gen MBP, Surface Pro 3, Thinkpad, and few others. The MBP gets hottest followed by the Surface Pro 3 and then the Thinkpad. Actually my Asus ROG laptop stays coolest (like cold to the touch) but it also weighs incredible amounts.
ThinkPads use #1 JIS Phillips screws almost everywhere, with some #0 JIS apparently used for internal parts. (I haven't encountered any #0 myself, just #1.)
#00 is definitely too small. You may be able to get away with it, but it's much easier and less likely to damage the screw heads if you use the right size driver.
The "JIS" is Japanese Industrial Standard, a slight variation from ordinary Phillips.
Wiha screwdrivers are my favorite; I use a #1 Wiha for all my ThinkPad work.
Here's a discussion:
http://forum.notebookreview.com/threads/screwdriver-kit.5093...
Here's my guess, I used an alcohol-based solvent to clean my keyboard and then closed the machine. Now I have stains of the oleophobic coating coming off in the places you'd expect it ... where the keys manage to come in contact with the screen.
So I suppose it's my fault, but I have a Lenovo T440s here with a beautiful matte screen that has no need for a fancy oil-resistent coating that comes off when you breath cleaning solvent on it.
Color me unimpressed, Apple.
Here's a photo (http://i.imgur.com/gnAqDqk.jpg). First you can see the main scratch is a very straight line. Not something that would come from wiping. Second below the man scratch you can see a pattern of small scratches about every 1/2 inch in pairs corresponding to the corners of keys on the keyboard.
I'd be happy if there was just way reasonably priced way to get it re-coated.
Most of these solvents will not harm switches/circuitboards (well, maybe apple ones, depending on what kind of protective coating they use).
2. The amount of effort it takes to have a coating that is resistant to almost all cleaners is completely and utterly trivial to a company like apple.
It's not a hard problem. It's not even a problem.
To put this in perspective for you, I can walk 1000 feet from my house, and get stuff that will function as an optically clear anti-reflective coating that is resistant to almost all chemicals.
(These things are portable to other coating types, too.. The wood end table i spray finished sitting next to me could be dipped in acetone, denatured alcohol, whatever, and it wouldn't affect the finish)
So yeah, i'm going to go out on a limb and say "apple has to figure out how to use coatings that resist these kinds of things", because it's 100% cheap and trivial.
it's still inexcusable from apple, but don't be surprised if rubbing tap water on your glossy screen screws it up.
> don't be surprised if rubbing tap water on your glossy screen screws it up.
I used tap water to remove e-cigarette refill fluid (an oily substance) that I spilled on a non-Apple glossy screen, using a dirty rag. Unsurprisingly the screen is still absolutely perfect and handled the highly corrosive water just fine.
Apple's bullshit is getting to you.
I have the same problem, it was caused by my (then) 12-month-old toddler touching the screen.
I cleaned the screen with a slightly damp microfiber cloth, the same one I use for my glasses.
The problem I've always had is that blemishes and usability issues have been common for their hardware, even going back to the easily-scratched metal backs of old iPods. It seems like every generation of iPhone has had some major defect.
None of these things are that big of a deal. If Apple is using cutting-edge manufacturing processes, I'd expect these things to happen.
The problem is that Apple has (in my experience) systematically denied that the problem exists, is widespread, and is their fault. It really takes something like staingate.org before they'll own up to something they should be willing to fix.
Perhaps for you.
> If Apple is using cutting-edge manufacturing processes, I'd expect these things to happen.
These are expensive devices, we're paying a premium for them. For the prices Apple charge I expect them to have worked out these kinks before hitting the market.
But then they screw up on the simple things: a screen coating which is extremely easily damaged, and no stress relief on their power supplies which dooms them to cable failure within 1-2 years.
BTW I resolved the screen issues by installing a matt screen protector. It has the added advantage of making the screen readable in sunlight. The downside is you lose a little clarity (or gain it if the streaks are really bad).
Apple could fix these problems easily, and - especially in the case the stress relief - it would cost them a fraction of a cent per unit.
Exactly. The fact that this is now a rarity in laptops pisses me off.
I bought an anti-glare matte screen protector for my 13" ultrabook. Makes it usable outdoors.
I'm really happy with this machine.
That said, my MBPR has some screen coating issue. But I'm not sure if I scratched it or not, so I won't join their database.
I won't accept Stainghazi.
RIP Sean Smith / Vile Rat. We miss you, buddy.
How deep does the rabbit hole go?
"Screencoatening?"
"Screenbleed"? STREAK? Have to have a catchy name like all these security vulnerabilities :)
Chlorine and heat will affect glasses, I bet the same can be said for these laptop screens.
I have a feeling that with a database of 258 people, you should be able to find out what people are using to clean their screens and damaging them. Cleaning your screen using those bleach wipes is a sure fire way to damage it!
There is very clearly a problem with the screen coating on a (in my case) $3500 machine, and Apple needs to be called out on this one. Bravo to the OP for bring this to light.
Why are you using a paper towel? I've always considered them to be moderately abrasive.
The problem is that 258 some-odd people, out of the what, several tens of thousands of people who have experienced this issue is not a "clearly" situation.
That's, conservatively, about .1% of owners experiencing a problem, and it is entirely within reason to believe the issue is user-caused, baring some reproducible test case.
... In addition of course to all the ones experiencing this effect after using a tee shirt, tissue, paper towel, or other cloth. The guy you’re responding to definitely shouldn’t be using a paper towel to clean the screen.
Still though, that doesn’t cause a problem with most other Apple laptop/phone/tablet displays, so people who now have scratched up screens didn’t ever expect this could happen, and weren’t trying especially hard to be careful about it. Apple should at the very least do a much better job warning their customers.
What grounds do you have for believing that web reach is an accurate estimator for this problem?
I know a lot of people go overboard when cleaning the screen. Either driven by OCD, you tend to clean it too often, putting way too much elbow grease and constant use of solvent. At the other end are those who let their laptops get covered in dirt and grime, thus, when they do decide to clean it, it's easy to do too much because that's the required effort.
What I would do is make sure after each use or every night, give your laptop a light wipe or dusting- eg. using a Swifter duster (use the 360º duster instead of the single-sided as it would minimise accidental scraping). If you don't have an old, soft cotton white t-shirt, use a good light colored micro-fibre cloth. Why white or light colored? To easily detect sand or dirt.
Now I'm annoyed that the cloth included in the box is deepest black.
From the pattern of the issue (http://i.imgur.com/gnAqDqk.jpg) you can see it has absolutely nothing to do with cleaning. In fact, it's mostly the edges of the screen that need to be wiped. The center, where the issue is, rarely if ever needs to be wiped/cleaned. On top of that you can see a pattern from the keyboard under the main issue area.
Someone above mentioned heat. Maybe it's closing an MBP after playing a game. They literally get too hot to touch. You have to make sure you fingers don't touch between the keys or else OUCH!
Checking where the area of issue touches the main body of the MBP it's the area between the touchpad and the keyboard that lines up with the area of the screen with all issue.
(My pet theory: Acids and oils left by the user's hands/fingers on the keyboard/case that react with the screen coating when the MBP is closed. Heat from clamshell mode could act as an additional catalyst.)
Can the keys come in contact with the screen when closed, not just sitting on the desk but upside down/etc. When closing the laptop to turn it off is heat passively dissipated properly? Metal lids would seem a good way to trap it.
And now I hear about this.
Probably one of the most widespread issues -- that Apple is not willing to cover -- in the history of an Apple laptop.
It's not even been 14 days yet, so it's still eligible for return.
Would be lying to say I wasn't considering it.
2011 MBPs were plagued by burning video cards, and only few weeks ago they accepted that it was an issue. Now if you have 2011 MBP, Apple will change your motherboard or repay your expenses on repairing your laptop (though, I do not know exactly how you must prove it).
In support.apple.com this issue is 12k posts long, and was ignored for 3-4 years.
Hope it will not repeat with rMBPs as I am owner of one and like to keep screen clean (cleaning by the recommendations of Apple).
My 2011 MBP, which was out of AppleCare, basically died a few months before they announced the repair program. I was very lucky I didn't sell mine for parts at a loss -- I seriously considered it.
I still lost a little bit of money because I basically gave away the RAM upgrade I bought for it, as I had no idea when or if they'd even offer a repair program.
This is my 3rd Macbook (best in terms of hardware, bar the display issue and worst in terms of software - too many glitches) and I'm really looking for an alternative when I next replace it.
But those are not exactly, you know... portable.
Looks like the MacBook Air may not suffer from this problem, so that's a possibility. Though I wanted something larger and more powerful.
I never found the keyboard to be much better than others but I have heard many others say it is great so maybe I'm the exception. I use a daskey mechincal on my gaming PC and it's pretty great. The track pad sucks compared to Apple's even though they are made by the same people.
I'll give you service ability (though my old macbook was upgradable). I'm really surprised I haven't had battery issues after 6 years. Being an IBMer we always had to order Lenovos. I think that is changes with our Apple deal. You could get a macbook through some exception but soon they will be available and supported for all employees. I've also heard there is a Toshiba option available though I'm not sure who would pick that over a ThinkPad.
Really I think the only thing that might sway me is Dell's new-found love for Linux.
I am one of the lone Mac users in my company and I can't imagine switching to the Dell laptops my coworkers have to use. They don't wear well, they require far more updates than my Mac. (I am on a rapid upgrade cycle because I am spoiled, not because my old ones no longer meet my needs).
They should of course be investigating and reacting faster when possible serious defects show up, but this won't be the first (or even the 5th) time they've run a free repair/replacement program for machines out of warranty, assuming that's what ends up happening (and I think it will).
$19.95 for 8oz (240ml) and a cloth...
1- 2 ounces iKlear Spray Bottle; 1- 6 ounces iKlear Spray Bottle 1- Medium DMT Antimicrobial Cloth; 1- Travel Size DMT Antimicrobial Cloth 1- Large "Chamois" Cloth; 1- Travel Size "Chamois" Cloth 12- iKlear Travel Singles (Step 1 Wet)
So two bottles of the stuff, four cloths, and 12 travel singles.
http://www.amazon.com/iKlear-iK-26K-Complete-Cleaning-Kit/dp...
BTW who's doing this and what are you doing with the data/with Apple?
[1] http://blog.javajosh.com/2015/02/when-apple-screws-its-custo...
> It's not like Apple is hurting and can't afford to do the right thing: Apple Computer has 40% profitability, $75B in cash reserves (more than the US Government) and here they are nickel-and-diming the people who are critical to their success.
Apple has been more than willing to extend warranties and repair issues once they're sure the problem is a defect.
Until they're sure, it's not "nickel and diming". It's charging people for a service.
Paying 4 grand for a laptop doesn't magically mean Apple is obligated in anyway to make you happy, costs be damned.
And without 'costs be damned', your final line does not work - if you sell a product for a premium price, you do have an obligation to make your customers happy.
The problem is that this can take a long time. So long, in fact, that it can be too late to get any benefit from these repair/warranty programs.
Some people who had the problematic 2011 Macbook Pro had already sold their laptops for parts at a loss before Apple finally acknowledged the issue (check out the huge thread on the support.apple.com forums).
I was lucky that I kept mine (it bricked itself a few months before the repair program was announced) because I had a feeling a replacement program might come out of the class action lawsuit related to the defect.
I ended up buying a new laptop when my 2011 Macbook Pro died because I wasn't going to fork out $500 for another defective logic board. I had already replaced it once while it was still under AppleCare, and it developed the same problems as the original within 6 months. Some people replaced their motherboards as many as 5 times with the same results.
>> Paying 4 grand for a laptop doesn't magically mean Apple is obligated in anyway to make you happy, costs be damned.
They don't have to make you happy "costs be damned", but they should be obligated to at least fix a product that is defective.
You mean once enough customers complain about it and the impact of the negative publicity outweights the cost of fucking over the customers.
When I buy a premium product, I expect premium support and service. Apple's money situation is relevant because they are choosing to not cover this issue despite having the resources to address it. If they were a struggling company, I could understand the reluctance to address the issue. But this seems short-sighted.
Besides, Apple should be grateful that people are making a stink online, giving them a chance to address the problem honorably before it goes to the courts via a lemon law.
Their resources are a red herring here.
I've been buying MacBooks for about 10 years now and quality control wise they seem to be struggling a bit which is to be expected when a manufacturer takes on mass production using edge techniques. Thats no excuse for not fixing the issues that do arise though particularly given the margin they have. My 2006 MacBook Pro is still chugging along whilst I've a 2009 with a few issues (one of which Apple did fix under warranty) and now my 2013 screen is quite literally coming apart.
I'm seriously considering jumping ship at my next refresh but what to is the problem. I actually like the aluminium construction of the MacBook so perhaps the Razor Blade with either Mint or Ubuntu is an option (anyone have any experience of this combination?). It has the added benefit of having a semi-respectable GPU on board for some light-weight machine learning play (again anyone have any experience using a Razor Blade 2014 for this?)
I am wondering if this is because of a hot unibody case coming very close to the screen when it is closed. So, someone who uses his MacBook very lightly so it doesn't get very hot and then powering it down completely and then waiting a bit before closing the lid might not have this issue as his MacBook is already rather cold when the lid gets closed.
There could be other issues with the screen coating but a lot of the pics on this site look like keyboard damage. You need to be very careful about putting pressure on the screen while it's closed.
"The point, explains Carmine Gallo, who is writing a book on the inside workings of the Apple Store, is to get people to touch the devices. "The main reason notebook computers screens are slightly angled is to encourage customers to adjust the screen to their ideal viewing angle," he says -- "in other words, to touch the computer.""
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/06/the-sc...
You though they learned quickly enough that this isn't a popular response. It's like they want to keep on propagating the memes.
That's pretty bad.
and you should be, you look like a hobo with a broken laptop asking people to pay you for good work. Im surprised you get any clients :)
1. In what city/region does the laptop spend most of its time in? 2. A few places the laptop sees heavy use (home office desk, coffee shop, etc.)
I wonder if there are environmental factors at play here that a database like this could build a correlation on. Maybe people live near salt water, or their environments are more humid, or temperatures fluctuate.
Please note that this sort of thing should NOT be required to repair a faulty product, but it might be of some benefit to the general public.
A glass product that is not fit by manufacture and design to tolerate glass cleaners is obviously poorly designed.
Because Apple is the definition of good design even when they aren't, the problem must transmute into moderately annoying victim shaming.
Would be nice if we saw some more information, at least attached to the images. Maybe even some other aggregates, since there seems to be a lot more submissions than they have images.
I think the effort is noble, but would be nice if we had a bit more info behind the intentions of the data being collected.
The same happened to me too. When I cleaned the screen with an alcohol-based wet tissue...
It does get worse on the edges as when wiping it the liquid tends to get on the edges so it affects that part more.
The screen is coated with a fine (a few microns) layer.
If you care so much about your Mac to read the actual care guide, you can see it clearly says not to use anything else but a cloth with water.
I have a friend that always makes a huge scene at an apple store when something breaks (latest thing was a failure of the Ati card in a iMac from 2011), he always gets everything fixed, for free. You need to have a big mouth.
Yeah. Not convinced.
No "staingate" at all. Sure, there are many other gates like magsafecrapgate, yosemiteslowgate, unbearablyslowgraphicsgate and such. But no staingate.
As far as i remember the Air has a "plastic screen" while the MacBook Pro has a real glass layer with some special anti-reflection coating.
and this is one of the reasons we moved on. Any coating is non permanent and will cause problems. You dont pay >$2K for a one year loan of a product, it shouldnt be build to fail.
> Don't use window cleaners, household cleaners, aerosol sprays, solvents, ammonia, abrasives, or cleaners containing hydrogen peroxide to clean the display.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/ht204172
Stick with a damp cloth.
(I use 99% isopropyl alcohol to clean my computer, screen and all. It's notably absent from Apple's list of forbidden chemicals, but I'm not sure that it's safe so I won't recommend it.)
http://www.whatsinsidescjohnson.com/en-us/products-by-brand/...
Those screens were damaged, both plastic and glass alike.
Some people think that since it is a glass screen, using cleaning solution like Windex is ok. That’s so not recommended.
Not exactly confidence inspiring.
"The stains start to appear after 12 to 18 months."
That's beyond the warranty period of the MacBook. When you purchase a MacBook, Apple makes it very clear that the warranty will expire after a year. I don't think it's reasonable to hold a company accountable beyond their warranty period if the price and warranty are clearly defined at time of purchase. If Apple products continually fail just outside of their warranty, the market will adapt to reduce the amount people are willing to pay for Apple hardware.
I'm a Macbook Retina owner myself and I'm not happy. Having a 2500 Euro machine that lasts as long as a 400 Euro crapbook?
Apple devices are more expensive than their counterparts, and you would expect them to be made of a high quality and last longer. That's why in Australia Apple provides minimum of two years warranty on all their devices.
EDIT: To expand- you are complaining about people complaining about a manufacturer's product. The natural process of market adaptation that you expect might very well involve customers complaining.
Ah the power of choice.
I accept responsibility for this bad decision.