Why do we care about Xiaomi? | Hacker News Reader

Why do we care about Xiaomi?

ben-evans.com

107 pointsDoubleguitars42 comments

There's a really major difference between the Windows/PC argument and the Android/HW one. It's important to remember because without it you end up describing symptoms as causes and not the other way around. Phones are much more of a fashion/status/tribe statement for better or worse than your desktop or laptop was and you use them way more in social settings than you do a laptop or desktop. So while this is true "PC OEMs mostly failed to differentiate in design" it's because that's not what drove sales. Corporate PC buyers didn't care and personal buyers really didn't care enough to spend $200 for better design because no one saw it (or if you did care you went with a Mac).

Same goes with "Second, PC OEMs never managed to create any meaningful differentiation in software" - Even if you had it's unlikely to have made much of a difference unless it had productivity differences. Because that's why you cared - you were (are) on these things for 8 - 10 hours a day trying to make a living vs 1 - 3 hours on your phone for work/social blend. We're not arguing that Xiamoni's suite of software makes the user more productive. It's just a "feel good" thing tied up in "Well I can't afford Apple but this thing is actually pretty sweet too" and/or "I'm not going with stock Android because that's too boring/crowdlike" Whatever the exact reasons they're emotional not productivity driven.

The reason this all matters is that the argument appears to be that Xiamoni may not be Dell - destined to rise and flame out in a commodity hell - but something that's neither Apple nor Dell but a third way. However, if the things it's differentiating on are different to what PC manufacturers differentiated but only because of unique aspects to this vertical then they're different barbarians but nevertheless still just barbarians.

Not to mention that Microsoft strictly controlled the Windows desktop environment. PC OEMs had no choice but to follow their instructions on what was ok or not ok to alter when it came to the experience the consumer had. Not doing what Microsoft told you to, was a fast way to lose your license pre consent decree.

With Android the situation is dramatically different. There's really no apples to apples comparison to be had between the software context re Windows OEMs and Android OEMs.

did they now. no crapware, no special toolbar add ons, no Lenovo battery manager, no nothing, we all got stock Windows with clean driver installs.

are you a visitor from a different dimension?

I also think the smartphone market is quite different from the PC business.

It's much easier now to create a viable platform than it was back then. Apps are much simpler. You can bootstrap an entire ecosystem by just implementing a few services (messaging, email, maps & a few others).

Nokia was on its way with the N700-N9/Maemo-Meego series, and afterwards with Nokia X. Both killed before getting the chance to succeed, but they might have had an impact had they lived longer.

Jolla is now taking the same route, but also adding an Android VM which offers almost seamless interop with Android apps. Very interesting approach. Not fully open yet, though.

If I were Xiaomi, I would go full steam ahead with MIUI. Don't just create another shallow Android mod. There are too many of those already. Try to evolve it into a whole open ecosystem free of Google. Think Cyanogen + f-droid, on steroids. It would really make them different.

If bootstrapping an ecosystem is that easy, why is Microsoft having such trouble with Windows Phone? They have perfectly serviceable equivalents for all the services you mentioned (maybe not compared to Google, but certainty against their other competitors), so clearly there is something else that is missing.

Throughout smartphone ownership, the Xiaomi Mi3 is the phone I've liked the most. Hardware was incredibly solid (and looked great), software worked smoothly and unlike most phones, I could root it without voiding my warranty. Once I loaded stock Android, it ran like a dream. Unfortunately the lack of an SD card slot meant it was a bit restricting, and I did eventually break the screen by clumsily dropping it. Still - this is the first time I've been proud of the phrase "Chinese Engineering" (and I'm a Chinese American). I'd definitely buy another in the future.

I've heard others (mostly Chinese-American engineers) tongue-in-cheek describe the Xiaomi units as "Android with Chinese characteristics."

"There's a widespread belief that an Android device without Google services (really, this means Maps and the app store) is unsaleable outside China (I'm not entirely sure about this, as I wrote here)"

Like you said in that link, Amazon has tried this and I'm not seeing it really working out all that well for them. I think the only reason phones without Google Services work in China is because the entire country blocks them and gives their domestics an artificial advantage. Amazon might be there too but only because they're too small to even worry about. Not so with Google and its Android services.

But Amazon offered expensive phone, right? I gather with features that didn't really live up to the price even if you don't count Google Services.

They lowered the price to 200$ with no contract only a couple of months after it came out. That is extremely cheap for the hardware. Nonetheless I don't know anyone with a Firephone, and it didn't really pick up steam afterwards either.

The failure of Amazon's phone is largely attributable to the fact they designed a phone _for Amazon_ and not for end users. They became too enthralled with the buy from Amazon experience. Anyway I don't think anything Amazon did is useful in terms of this discussion.

Not just looking at the phone, though, even the tablets (kindle fire) are crippled because FireOS is subpar to stock Android in virtually every way that matters.

Xiaomi mobiles sold in India does contain Google apps(and its so much smoother then some mid-budget mobiles and comes with better specs). Nokia still has good reputation in India and still they were not able to gain any significant marketshare with wp.

Jolla has an Android compatibility layer but no Google services (AFAIK). I don't know how well they are selling, though.

The Nokia X platform is (was) a recent attempt at creating an Android device without Google for markets other than China:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_X

X might have gone somewhere, but by the time it shipped, Nokia's phone division had been acquired by Microsoft.

I reject the premise that Android phones are the same as PC's. You can add a lot of value to a smartphone that you cannot with a PC and most manufacturers have not figured it out. Some ideas:

AppleCare equivalent. To my knowledge, Android phone manufacturers still don't offer comprehensive accident protection. This is the main reason I stay with Apple products: I can buy this type of protection.

Predictable and fast upgrade schedule. As is, carriers and manufacturers control the upgrade schedule. That still results in crazy delays in upgrades. No, upgrade the damn things ASAP.

Make the phone waterproof. Not resistant, -proof. I want to use it at 100 ft below.

Make it scratch resistant.

Give it better battery life.

Make it look/feel better than the competitors.

Give it a better camera.

I think the list can go on.

> AppleCare equivalent. To my knowledge, Android phone manufacturers still don't offer comprehensive accident protection. This is the main reason I stay with Apple products: I can buy this type of protection.

As a swede I can not for my life understand this sentiment. Over here AppleCare is a blatant ripoff that no wise person would buy. People gets an insurance that covers most/all aspects of life — not an insurance per product they buy.

I don't want my renters insurance premium to go up because I lost a $600 cell phone. I'd rather break that into two different policies.

Now I'm curious: what exactly is your use case for a phone at one hundred foot depth?

Yeah, this is weird. The design trade offs you'd have to make would likely mean a phone that is largel unusable at the surface.

I want to make sure my phone still works after one of my kids dunks it in the toilet. Or tosses it the pool. 100 feet is definitely overkill, but I would rather have a rugged device than a delicate one.

Fair enough. On the other hand, the percentage price increase it's worth paying for that, is perhaps on the order of the probability that your phone would otherwise die from that cause rather than some other. I suspect actually making a phone waterproof to a hundred feet (as opposed to just moderately water resistant) would cost more than it's worth paying.

Not necessarily. I would pay somewhat more, simply for having more faith in the device. After all, a smartphone is the piece of electronics I use more often than any other throughout the day, and having one I enjoy using is worth it. Knowing that it's well engineered and won't let me down soon as I sit down and it slips out of my pants pocket onto the floor, or that my kid can't drown it, or my wife can't run over it with a car when I drop it in the driveway is a good feeling I'm willing to pay some amount of money for.

Hold on, does this article really suggest additions to Android by device manufacturers are anything but bs bloatware born by the desperate struggle of companies to emulate apple and avoid Google.

I posted something similar about Xiaomi about a week back. For me, Xiaomi is a fantastic company, but I think they are still unavailable to most Westerns... perhaps this is why we might not "care" about them? Having never lived in China, I'm not sure how difficult is it to buy a Western-produced good (e.g. iPhone), but I know from trying to buy an Xiaomi product in the past, it's rather difficult.

There is no "direct" avenue of purchase, and the only reputable suppliers seem to tack on huge premiums that all but negate the usual price advantage that Xiaomi provides. Have you ever tried to explain to someone non-tech who Xiaomi is?

Same goes when people ask if my OnePlus One is an HTC product.

Can't you get their products with minimal markup on AliExpress?

You can, and I say that hesitantly because there is no official seller of the product, and as such, one can quickly become a victim of fraud if they aren't careful. For the same reason you can't purchase RayBans on AliExpress, I'm assuming the same holds true for mobile phones.

Yes. You can also find them quite cheap on Ebay.

I found it quite easy. The only snag with international phone buys is that you have to really make sure to get one with support for the radio bands your operator uses.

> Have you ever tried to explain to someone non-tech who Xiaomi is?

Why would that be difficult? "They're a Chinese phone company, they're quite big in China but not really in the West for now."

It's not so much that it's difficult to explain, it's just tough to explain the credibility that this company has when someone hasn't heard of them. Like I originally mentioned, this dialogue is typically only from someone that likely doesn't frequent HN either.

A similar scenario might be how some people construed open-source products to be lesser than their paid counterparts (e.g. Ubuntu vs Windows). Similarly, those who haven't heard of Xiaomi, might consider it inferior to their iPhone, since they're well aware of Apple's brand, identity, and product line.

Ah, I understand you now. Yeah, conveying that it's not awful is quite a different task.

> Having never lived in China, I'm not sure how difficult is it to buy a Western-produced good (e.g. iPhone), but I know from trying to buy an Xiaomi product in the past, it's rather difficult.

Not hard at all, as most of the options are by Western brands. Samsung is huge, Apple is too. Usually the OS (for mobile devices) is tweaked by removing Google services from Android (all Google services are blocked in mainland China, but not in HK/Macau/Taiwan) and replaced with a domestic equivalent.

Physical stores are usually not branded by manufacturer, but by mobile service provider (China Mobile or China Unicom), with a range of domestic or international brand names inside.

Online stores: See 139shop.com as an example of what's available.

Convergence devices have a long history. I read in Steward Brand's 1988 book, The Media Lab, about devices that would converge, collect the functions of our small electronics. Xerox PARC was starting on ubiquitous computing and "pads, tablets, and slates" in the timeframe.

A 30 year progression has brought that old dream to hundreds of millions, who just call it a "phone."

I have a hard time seeing the long history in terms of just one brand, or even a few. The trend is much bigger.

I actually like the confusion of the Android market, but I chose a purely conforming Nexus for myself.

Still I like an ecosystem that is really that, and Xiaomi contributes to diversity, even if I don't buy one.

Grabbed a Nexus 5 myself, because hey, it's pretty hard to beat for $300 and also because of it's tight integration with Google service, with which I myself am tightly integrated.

But, for my mother? She couldn't give a damn less, which is where I think a lot of these smaller manufacturer's will succeed. I actually quite like the idea of a simplified/dumbed-down Android experience that Xiaomi is offering and would seriously consider it for my mother and less tech inclined friends/relatives.

Having worked and traveled extensively in China, I couldn't find a single person that had good things to say about Xiaomi, other than its price. Western media seems to be fixated on this company but I've asked so many Chinese nationals what they thought of it, why they do[n't] have it, etc. All of them said that it constantly froze, dropped calls, etc. Almost always, they have a Xiaomi only as a temporary phone before they upgrade to a Samsung, iPhone, or other

Perhaps there is a bias somewhere, but after nearly 3 years of travel and work there I have serious doubts about this company...

I often ask people if they click on Facebook/Google ads, and they've never said yes. That doesn't mean people in general don't click on ads. The same could be said for Xiaomi. Just because the Chinese you've asked don't love it doesn't necessarily mean it's a company to doubt.

Xiaomis biggest innovation wasn't hardware it was their distribution/sales model. They were also the first mobile company to really listen to their fans and do incredibly fast iteration of software and hardware. Their customer service is incredible for a Chinese company(where the consumer may be right but has their rights ignored)

I had a xiaomi 1- the thing that it excelled at was china specific features - spam blocking china, App Store etc many of these features are only just coming to iOS

Now they are building an ecosystem.

Edit for grammar

The main takeaway from Xiaomi's success is that being a ripoff is a valid business model. Not only valid, it can be better than trying to fake creativity. Xiaomi badly wants/wanted to be Apple. What they did with Android might look creative to you, but only if you look at it as an Android. Again, they want to be Apple. They want to have an iOS, modifying Android is the fastest way to get there.

To all the people saying Xiaomi is just taking inspiration - watch that: http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODc0OTA0NzY4.html

I think we just have hard time stomaching the fact that people who blatantly plagiarize can win. We view it as evil and whenever someone does it and wins we try to explain how they really didn't.

It's okay, it's just globalization.

I think author explained the copycat claim rather clearly:

"It's a common reflex in the USA to call Xiaomi and similar companies copycats, on both a hardware and software level, and there's certainly a lot of design inspiration going on, but dismissing these phones as rip-offs is rather lazy. When you actually hold them and use them you would never mistake them for iPhones, any more than you'd mistake a $500 coat or bag for the $2,000 example that sometimes inspires the colour or trim. You can sometimes see where it came from, but it's not the same, nor is it trying to be. Rather, they deliver a similar approach to the user experience at a lower price in a way that's often been absent from Android so far (it's hard not to look at some of Nokia's beautiful Lumia devices and wonder what impact they might have had on Apple if they'd run Android)."

A 70 minute video in Chinese does not count as an argument. It is way too long to be expected to be viewed even if it was in English.

True, sorry, should have gave a brief description. It's Xiaomi CEO's latest keynote. It mimics Apple keynotes almost one to one. No, it's not just the same structure. Fonts, graphics, pacing, vids all look and feel the same. If I didn't know Xiaomi I might have assumed it's some kind of a parody of Apple.

The irony is that in order for there to actually be a competitor to the iPhone, Google must lose control of Android.

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