Comment by BuildTheRobots | Hacker News Reader

Comment by BuildTheRobots | Hacker News Reader

This is probably a stupid question, but could someone explain what it means to be fired in the USA?

Here in the UK (especially after you've been employed for over two years and/or you're off "probation") it tends to be the last step in a long process of verbal then written warnings where you're repeatedly doing things you're getting told off for. Relatively few things are actually "bad" enough to get you instantly dismissed on the spot (theft and the woolly term "gross misconduct" jump to mind, but even then there were multiple meetings, investigations and very specific charges).

In the UK if you were fired (rather than being made redundant or being given the chance to quit) it tends to mean that the blame is on you, to the point where the company would be willing to prove this with evidence at a tribunal (-especially if it's a medium to large company).

From what I'm reading, in the US it seems to be a case that you could loose your job, with no notice at any time for any reason?

> From what I'm reading, in the US it seems to be a case that you could loose your job, with no notice at any time for any reason?

Yes, exactly.

In many states, US employers can terminate an employee at any time, for (almost) any reason, or for no reason at all. It's often called "At-will employment" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

Note that while it technically works both ways, realistically it only works to the employers benefit. The employer is allowed to fire any employee at any time, for no reason, with no recourse.

But it's considered highly inappropriate for an employee to quit without offering an employer at least two weeks notice (unless the employer has committed some sort of major misconduct, committed a crime, ceased payroll, etc).

> Note that while it technically works both ways, realistically it only works to the employers benefit. The employer is allowed to fire any employee at any time, for no reason, with no recourse.

I don't agree at all. In this market it benefits technology workers to be at-will. You can get a great job offer and literally leave your job the next day. This drives salaries up overall and means companies need to work harder to keep people.

Compare that to the UK, where it's standard practice for a senior dev to be stuck with a 3 month notice period. I had a hell of a time getting out of a bad situation when I first moved here as a result.

> You can get a great job offer and literally leave your job the next day

Except who would hire someone like that?

if someone reads my post, that got heavily downvoted, I'm curious as why? I mean, if I was an employer and I could hire someone who quit his last job after a day just because he could, I wouldn't want to hire him.

Why would you leave your job the next day, though? It seems unlikely that an employment offer would be conditioned on your not giving notice. And giving notice smooths the transition for your colleagues, whom you can use for networking in the future.

I second this opinion. I know people who have gotten out of really bad jobs really fast thanks to this as well as people who were able to join their dream job without having to wait 3+ months.

This is anecdotal: I have a little less than 1.5 years of experience and I've had 3 jobs. My first job payed me 46k/year, my current job pays me 78k/year. In all cases outside circumstances forced me to quit, but looking back, I got to work with a ton of incredible people, learned tons, and my salary skyrocketed.

The at-will system if far from ideal, but it definitely doesn't benefit just the employer, I guess it changes a game of chess to a game of blitz chess.

I have seen multiple cases where shitty or ill-informed managers tried to pressure salaried employees into "committing"—commit to another project cycle, another quarter, another year, whatever. "We're trying to do strategic planning, I need to know if you intend to stay... yada yada yada."

As part of HR, part of my job was to remind managers and employees that that's all bullshit. As at-will, you can "commit" to staying and then quit the very next day. If you're a good manager, you very likely have some sense of your staff's intent to stay without needing passive-aggressive conversations about commitment/engagement. If you do not have a contract and you're under at-will employment, use it to your advantage whenever the fuck you can.

(That said, I do agree with maxsilver that at-will employment is still tilted to the employer's benefit overall.)

Yes, in most cases in the US, you're correct. A vast majority of hiring relationships are "at will" relationships -- which means you can leave at will and be fired at will.

The exceptions are when there's a formal employment contract in place -- unions do this, certain professions do this (professors, etc.), and certain executive packages are under contract as well.

But in general, yes, you can quit on a moment's notice and be fired on the same.

NOW - most "smart" companies won't just do this. A good manager wants his/her employees to succeed, and if something isn't going right, they'll do their best to coach, warm, and help the employee improve.

Are there lots of bad managers who keep it all bottled up inside until one day, boom, you're fired? Sure. It stinks.

I'd like to believe there are more good managers than bad ones (at least in terms of coaching employees toward longevity.)

Exactly right! Every engineering job I've had has been considered "at will employment," [1] meaning that the company can terminate you, or you can walk, at any time, and for any (legal) reason.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/At-will_employment

(edited to correct typo)

It's highly dependent by the state in which you work. Github is in California, an "at-will" state [1], which basically means that you can get fired for any reason, including no reason at all. The only exceptions to this rule are if you were fired as a result of discrimination of a certain protected characteristic such as your age, gender, race, etc.

[1] http://www.business.ca.gov/StartaBusiness/AdministeringEmplo...

You seem to forget that's its relatively easy to get around that.

The company makes up the objectives you have to meet, so could set really hard targets. Its called being "Performance Managed" out.

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