Boys are being outclassed by girls at both school and university
economist.com
economist.com
For example, if each gender's academic capabilities were normally distributed, then I would expect the mean for girls to be higher than the mean for boys, but the variance for boys to be larger than the variance for girls. I say this because I tend to see many boys at the very bottom of my classes, but also at the very top.
Of course this is all based on my experiences in school, and I have no data to back this up. But I'd be interested in seeing distributions of academic performance for each gender.
No personal jabs, please. This comment would be much better without the second sentence.
Maybe I shouldn't.
The quantity and range of posts to HN—plus the fact that there's one big site/community and not a bunch of little siloed ones—guarantee that whatever buttons you have will eventually get pushed here, just like any exposed spot will eventually get wet in a rainstorm. This isn't personal; it's a statistical process. But we're not hard-wired to experience statistical processes, so unless one is careful, it feels like one is dealing with a person—usually an annoying adversary with demonic powers to drive one crazy. I think this is why people often post comments personifying "HN". We each have a different imaginary arch-enemy in our heads.
I mention this in the hope that it might be helpful to anyone else who recognizes the pattern. In our case, exposure to it is an occupational hazard, so we've had little choice but to learn about it.
I really can relate with this I since I myself was really strong in all science and math related subjects as well as in english and art... but regarding languages like latin i did fail , sometimes even handing in a completly white paper, since i could choose which subjekts were going to count in my Abitur ( think of it as A levels ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Summers#Differences_be...
I think that it is true statistically that boys perform better if they go to a boys-only school. I don't remember if the same is true for girls or not.
Obviously like pretty much everything on this topic, those are very broad generalizations, that are not indicative of any one individuals behavior.
The public school system was designed to squirt out interchangeable cogs for the regimented institutionalized factory / sweatshop workplace with the ability to act as cannon fodder as military industrial complex profits dictate. That workplace is dead in this country other than blue collar style criminality (WRT entering for-profit prisons).
There is the interesting analogy of high school study hall vs open office concept. Nothing ever got done in study hall other than goofing around and socializing. Real job (aka not an open office) of a higher social status are more like the silent study tanks at uni or studying at home (office job as opposed to open office)
I think it shouldn't be underestimated when it comes to gender gap in tech. The sad (and short) story is that a lot of teaching is uncoupled from the future career life. Vide http://xkcd.com/519/
Hard to know without the data to analyse for this.
Not entirely convinced that success in these channels is conducive to anything.
Adherence to a specific structure is just one way to provide merit to youth.
Let's see a gender comparison in lucrative web project creation?
1) Nope, this doesn't mean girls are good as boys.
or
2) That's nice but this doesn't mean we have achieved gender equality.
What's funny is that is precisely the reason that girls and boys compete in separate classes in athletics. It's why there's a women's olympic medal in swimming and a men's.
So when are schools going to begin grading the girls on one curve and the boys on their own?
Sure there are underlying sex differences, but the best boy at anything is a lot better than the average girl, in the same way the best girl at anything is a lot better than the average boy. Where athletic championships are concerned the differences in the distributions make a difference, but to organize a society around the tails of the distribution is a mistake.
Men are shaped by social expectations as much as anything else, and those expectations are communicated to them violently and in no uncertain terms. To be a successful man you must over-produce so you can take care of your family. You must defend something: your family honour, your country, your personal integrity. And you must do so violently, or you aren't a good man.
These characteristics are pretty much universal, but once upon a time kingship was pretty much a universal characteristic of human societies, and we don't see too many of them around any more. Kingship was also considered "natural" and "inevitable" at the time when it was merely common. So I'd be wary of arguments that simply because beating the hell out of boys and men until they are shaped into a particular mold is common, that it reflects more than relatively weak proclivities on the part of the people being beaten.
Until we recognize that boy's poor performance in school is due to masculinity being socially constructed in ways that fail boys and men academically, we will continue to perpetuate this systemic injustice, and we won't really know what boys and men are capable of.
I personally never had time for school, I needed to earn money and I am glad I didn't go to school/university longer. It would have been a huge waste of my time and it would have massively inhibited my professional success.
If this were true, then why is it only recently that boys are falling behind? This isn't explained by the article at all.
College admissions for all the top schools already do this.
We really need to stop caring about how boys are girls are doing in school and start caring why so many people are being given degrees and can't get a job in their chosen field.
So if I was interested in gender equality then I might suggest that maybe the balance has swung too far and we need to reverse some of these changes just a little bit, but I'm actually a feminist so I'm just going to declare victory and move on.
I'm not a feminist, but I wonder if you're really representing the feminist point of view, at least as most feminists would like to be seen.
I say that I expect it, but I've already had friends telling me this is the way it is.
That's a true statement, but it's not a basis for action, much less legislation.
Another true statement, "women are achieving by sleeping their way to promotions."
Most of us, however are at a place of employment where men and women do get along. An imbalance of men/women in the workplace isn't by itself proof of anything. I'm in a shop with an imbalance, but we're hiring and can't find anyone. If women were out there making 77% of men, we'd love to talk to them. But they're not, and at the same time we're lumped in as the problem because our industry has some "brogrammers" which is a phenomenon I've never actually witnessed. Of course the next thing I'll hear is that because I claim not to have witnessed it is because the culture is so deep it is invisible and I'm a part of it.
Well, I'm sorry, 30+ years of hearing how I'm the problem really gets old. Of course some people aren't talking about all men, but if I say "not all men", I've hit another trigger.
It's a minefield and I'm sure just by writing more than a single line of agreement I've stepped on one.
There is already evidence that this trend is starting to be observed in the workplace as well. If fathers start to take paternity leave, as they are now entitled to do in the UK, this trend may continue through parenthood as well.
They're both very serious problems, and we should all be looking at solutions for both.
Also, the rise of at least one series of books targeted towards females (twilight saga) has likely had a huge impact on the reading levels of girls since 2005, while the last best-seller books targeting boys (Harry Potter) was made back in 1997 and has since lost much of its appeal. Also, Harry Potter didn't outright exclude girls with its content, while Twilight saga was hated almost unanimously by boys. As a result, you find more girls reading for pleasure.
The effects of arts and culture are probably as important as the genetics/hormones of growing children.
Also in my opinion a higher percentage of woman then men are not willing to get a job which has a lot of conflict potential , so at least a higher percentage of men are willing to try more stressfull and demanding jobs which also pay better.
These effects add up showing why there may just be a gab in the first years. This is mainly a problem of preferences.
The gaps later on and in higher positions i think are still really a huge problem for woman in all professions, so i would certainly not include them in this really simplified explanation.
This is truly only my opinion regarding the small gap right after getting a degree.
Idea: Compare and contrast school behaviour with behaviour in the wild (youtube comments, videogames teamspeak)
"According to the OECD, the return on investment in a degree is higher for women than for men in many countries, though not all."
I think this is enough explanation and no more analysis is necessary.
I fall back to Carmack on this issue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vzmbW4ueGdg
Or, vive la différence.
Or, "Men and women deserve equal respect as persons but are not the same" (E. Fromm, The Art of Loving, love and its connections with emotions, psychology, and religion).
The article is awash with phrases that constitute lying with statistics"; basically the article is a case of trying to get attention based on nothing very solid or new.
So, (1) a lot of what the article is saying about so many women in college doing so well can be explained by:
"But men and women tend to study different subjects, with many women choosing courses in education, health, arts and the humanities, whereas men take up computing, engineering and the exact sciences."
and
"A big reason is the choice of subject: education, the humanities and social work pay less than engineering or computer science."
So, a lot of women are in college getting Bachelor's and Master's degrees as preparation for K-12 teaching. Add in the women there on the way to a nursing RN and have some more. Law? Get some more. Social science for work in HR? Got some more.
The rest of the humanities? Women on the way to their Mrs. degree.
Business? A CPA is a good career career path, especially for women.
Women doing well in math in college? Sure: They want to be K-12 math teachers.
But, from the OP, apparently still
"whereas men take up computing, engineering and the exact sciences"
so that the men are still there for technical training for hard work of applications, not just teaching, in a career.
To be more clear, for the "academically" part of the title here, we're talking the real goal of academics, chaired profs at the top research universities, maybe? Nobel prize winners in the physical sciences? Fields Medal winners (math)? The girls/women are doing better there -- gee, why'd I not notice?
Oh, I understand! In part we're talking K-6 where the girls have better manual dexterity, better hand writing, better verbal talent, better social skills (how to please instead of piss off the teachers, nearly all woman), better clerical talent (keep those columns in long division nicely lined up), much more interest in fictional reading, better social skills working in groups, much more eager to behave well* in class. Ah, now that's much of what is meant by "academically"!!
Gee, what's that got to do with high end academic success? Well, let's see: Good starting attitude for such success is,
"That old stuff is junk. Pitch it. Let's do some much better, new stuff. E.g., Maxwell did really well, but he was never clear on what would happen if the lab were moving rapidly, say, near the speed of light. So, looks like need to tweak Maxwell's equations.
Or, the Riemann integral? Gotta be kidding! Looks like we can redo integration theory and integrate darned near anything and show that a function on a finite closed interval has a Riemann integral if and only it is continuous everywhere except on a set of length 0.
Control theory? Sure. But what about in gusty winds? Now what? How 'bout some stochastic optimal control?
Malaria caused by bad air? Gotta be kidding. Let's find out what the real cause is. How about something from all those mosquito bites?
I can't do linear regression because some variable was listed twice or some variables are linear combinations of some of the others? Silly. Yes, I know, the normal equations matrix does not have full row rank and, thus, doesn't have an inverse, but why do we have to go through that matrix inverse stuff? We don't!"
In the 10th grade I had such a case: My plane geometry teacher was a very ugly and angry woman. It was a good high school, and she actually could mostly work the exercises, but otherwise she was not much of a mathematician.
So, no way did I want to have my knowledge of plane geometry, a subject I loved, owe anything to her. So, I slept in class and refused to claim to do any of the homework.
But, I no doubt did by far the most homework of anyone in the class, solved every non-trivial problem in the book including the more difficult supplementary problems in the back.
So, on the state test, I came in second in the class (the same guy beat me by a few points on the Math SAT also).
But on that test the last problem was about inscribing a square in a semi-circle -- two corners were to be on the diameter and the other two, on the arc. How to do that?
I said, go off on the side and construct a square, bisect one side, use that point as center and the distance to an opposite corner as radius, and draw a circle. Extend the bisected side to a diameter. Now have a figure similar to the desired one. So, for the given figure, just need, say, the length of half a side. So, that will be a forth proportional. So construct that and, ..., done.
So, I wanted to check this and insisted over her objections that the teacher see me after school. She said I couldn't go off on the side and construct that other figure. Sounded like nonsense to me.
As a college freshman, a girl asked me, given triangle ABC, construct D on AB and E on BC so that AD = DE = EC. Hmm .... Go off on the side and construct a figure similar to the desired one and for the crucial length AD, get that from a fourth proportional.
The girl asked, "How'd you know to do that?"
I told her it'd figured it out in the 10th grade.
She said, "That's the advanced technique smilitude we are studying."
"Well, I reinvented it in the 10th grade, and the teacher said I couldn't do that."
No wonder I didn't much pay attention to the teacher.
High end academics is about research, research, and research. There have to do some things that are new, and typically have to be the first one ever to do that thing. So, have to be able to say that not everything from the past is the best possible and can stand up as the first person ever to say how to do better, and that's not what gets good grades in K-6 or most of K-12 or most subjects in college.
Looks like the OP is talking about nothing very new, different, or surprising.
Or maybe: Men went for the technical fields hoping to use such as a foundation for a career, but now the main technical career is computing, and there most of what a student needs on a job they have to learn themselves with/without course in computer science. So, a lot of people are concluding that college is not really essential for a good start in computing. For engineering as a career, that's less popular than before.
Physics? A lot of the interest there was in work in US national security, but that work less hot as a field than some decades ago.
But for K-12 teaching, nursing, pharmacy, law, HR, CPA, etc., those female fields have remained relatively solid. So, women are still doing well in their fields while the men are having to build careers heavily outside of what is taught in college.
I love when you realize these things. I had a similar moment recently when I showed some amateur set operations library I wrote for fun a couple years ago to a friend who I am teaching to program. So she's a mathematician and she pointed out that my source code was actually the exact definition of some of the set operations. Which, in retrospect is funny because what I did was try to emulate a subset of math using linked lists and predicate functions.
Facts cannot be sexist. However I cannot help that feel like this one gets bounced around because people have some type of agenda. This just further goes to prove how powerful of a force patriarchy is. Woman do better in academia but get lower paying jobs and promoted at a lower rate.
I certainly wouldn't. I'd assume that he's intentionally misinterpreting people in an attempt to shut down discussions that go against his preferred narrative.
I don't see why it wouldn't be because of patriarchy. Look at history.
"Although additional research in this area is clearly needed, this study leads to the unambiguous conclusion that the differences in the compensation of men and women are the result of a multitude of factors and that the raw wage gap should not be used as the basis to justify corrective action. Indeed, there may be nothing to correct. The differences in raw wages may be almost entirely the result of the individual choices being made by both male and female workers."
The entire issue is just politics. For example, studies have shown that taller people make significantly more money than shorter people, by an amount that exceeds the unexplained pay gap between men and women based on the average height difference between men and women. Back of the envelope math then implies that women get paid more than men of the same height who do the same job.
[1] http://www.consad.com/content/reports/Gender%20Wage%20Gap%20...
"After social reforms they slowly entered the workforce, but they were not paid as well and not given as good jobs."
How many years ago was this? I've worked at many tech companies over the years and the women that were hired were paid just as much as any man in the same position. Of course this is my own personal experience, but again, I would think if it was as wide-spread as many claim, I would have seen it at least once.