Comment by porker | Hacker News Reader

Comment by porker | Hacker News Reader

I have seen Paul Jarvis' site before, and coupled with the teaser for this course, have come away feeling I've missed something.

Great writing, good work, and obviously talented. But...

"bringing in more than $20K a month for over a decade"

"I started freelancing in the ‘90s and [...] had a full client roster and a multi-month waiting list since I started freelancing."

What - not even one month without work set up for the following month/month-after-next? Or one month in 120+ months where income has dropped below $20k? [A decade ago, $20k was worth even more than now]

Now I've freelanced for over a decade, and my best months have been ~$18K - but my average is a lot lower than that. Short of Mr Jarvis having some advantage -- contacts and a foot in the door, ninja networking skills, or a magnetic personality: how are the above two true?

I'm especially curious as his website doesn't show him as an expert in one topic (per @bdunn et al's advice), but more of a generalist like myself. And generalists aren't supposed to make such money.

[Edit: Redid the currency conversion and upped my best months]

At $100-$150/hour $20k/month ranges from doable to dependable. If you are good and experienced I don't see why you couldn't bill that as a generalist.

Also, generalist-vs-specialist depends on your perspective. To your clients, you are a specialist. :-)

Personality-wise I'm really a generalist, but I've started thinking of myself as a specialist in full-stack Rails development. I don't think that's as oxymoronic as it sounds. I've done web applications for 15 years, and Rails for a long time. Besides Rails I can go deep on Postgres, Chef, and AWS, which I think all hangs together very nicely, and I can go broad on Javascript, machine learning, and Java/Python/C/iOS. You don't want me in charge of buying your routers or architecting your Django app, but it's not like all I do is Postgres performance tuning. HN folk would call me a generalist, I'm sure, but for a lot of clients, I'm specialized enough. Anyway, a generalist with 15 years experience might know more about x than a specialist with 2. :-)

> At $100-$150/hour $20k/month ranges from doable to dependable.

Err... math is off.

100 (rate) * 7 (full work day, don't get paid for lunch) * 5 (number of days in a week) * 4.3 (number of weeks in a month) = 15,050

That's 15K. And that's assuming you have a 100% full schedule and spend 0 time on invoicing/marketing/non-billable activities. Realistically, you're probably looking at a 10K rate per month with a 100/hour rate.

The only way you'll see 20K is if you're the middle man hiring the help or you're not billing hourly/daily/whatever. Assuming you're not in the business of managing other engineers, not billing on time increments means fixed price jobs.

Unfortunately, there is only a sliver of work that will fit well into that model. Where the job is very well defined, simple enough to do in a few hours, but complex enough that it can't just be handed off to any random joe. Not too many clients with that kind of work on a consistent basis.

So the OP is right, the only way you'll see that kind of money is once in a blue moon, if you specialize in something niche and can charge 250/hour, or if you're managing other people.

Well maybe I am working too hard. :-)

But really, how many startup founders on HN are putting in 35 hour weeks? At $100/hr I don't think $20/mo is easy, but I'd say you could hit it once or twice a year. That's what I mean by "doable."

Your whole argument has collapsed, so :( The original quote was that it was more than $20k a month. For a decade. You're missing $5k a month and again, that's without having any time to market, bill, do your taxes, etc.

..perhaps he isn't at $100/hour?

I was replying to this: "my best months have been ~$18K". Sorry for trying to encourage someone. You're right that $20k minimum is a lot harder, at $100/hr probably impossible. But as a peak?

Last year January, July, October, and December all had 23 weekdays. $100/hr * 9 hr/day * 23 days/mo = $20700/mo. If you have no commute and maybe do a Saturday or two that's pretty doable. I wouldn't make it routine, but I've occasionally had months that busy.

Yes, not all hours are billable, but the non-billable stuff isn't that time consuming:

Marketing: Aren't most freelancers turning away work right now?

Billing: I push the "invoice" button and it's done. 1-2 hours a month.

Taxes: If you're working for yourself you shouldn't do your own taxes.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful to someone. Best of luck to you all.

> $100/hr * 9 hr/day * 23 days/mo = $20700/mo.

I know you mention a Saturday, but if you can bill 9 productive hours a day, I take my hat off to you. I could in my early-mid 20's, I can't any longer.

> Marketing: Aren't most freelancers turning away work right now?

Not here in the UK, not the ones I know of (that is, the ones who don't have part-time speaking careers or get featured in magazines).

Do the maths at $150 (a rate he nominated) and then tell him again that his whole argument has collapsed.

150/hr * 2080 hours is an annual gross of 312k. Divide by two to estimate an equivalent annual salary of 156k. A good salary, yes, but not out of reach for someone who builds websites front to back. 150/hr is probably too low to account for downtime and the added risks of going on your own.

It's entirely unreasonable to assume a completely full book. Also remember that the tax burden as a 1099 is higher and more complicated. Also you have to pay all of your own benefits, if you can get them (for example, disability insurance is difficult to get and expensive when you do).

You're wrong. It's not only reasonable, it's common.

My point was that making the assumption that you'll be able to book 2080 hours in a year is bad for business. I've had full months, sure, but I've also had months with about four days of work total. The numbers have to work in either case or you're running a hobby, not a business.

Also, I can't speak to how common it is, but in my (albeit limited) experience, a full book is just a bad idea in general. When I have a full book I end up working on the business (invoicing, lead gen, client relationships, bookkeeping, taxes, etc) in the slices of time that I would rather be spending time with my family.

Right, but there are more fixed price jobs than there seem - it's just a matter of marketing & structuring the gig. An example from my industry: the top recruiters won't touch a job if it resulted in less than $500 - $750/hour net.

Doesn't it also depend whether you bill by the hour or by the day/week?

There was a discussion on freelancing a year or two back on HN where it came out that at a certain level of experience, you're better off bidding by the week, e.g. $5K/week or $10K/week because clients often prefer to think in terms of total project costs rather than hourly contractor costs.

I have definitely noticed happier clients after offering a day rate. Not just for budget, but it can help some clients feel better about knowing "when".

"And generalists aren't supposed to make such money."

I think the general modus operandi for the freelance economy is the generalists are supposed to find capital and customers, and hire the freelancers. If they do their job right, the generalists (owners) can make a lot of money. They just don't fit as easily into niche jobs.

I think you need to revisit your rates. I've seen this a few times, but one of the issues with sticking with freelancing is you don't realise what the going rates are anymore. Sure you can compare it amongst friends and acquaintances you've known for a while, but they are blind too. $20k today isn't what it was 10 years ago.

Sure it depends on where you are, but if you stick with local clients you are always going to be limited (unless you live somewhere like London).

(I'm a generalist, mainly Ruby, and have been freelancing for 18 months. Last month was my best month and I was just short of the $20k mark, before tax)

"And generalists aren't supposed to make such money."

If generalist don't make much money, and the best you've done isn't to your liking (because more is always better)... Why would you keep labeling yourself a generalist?

Your best month isn't that great. And if you've been at it for over 10 years, you probably have a lot of experience to share. Ever thought about re-assessing yourself, giving yourself the credit you deserve and creating a better pitch for your services?

I think there is a difference labeling yourself a generalist here on HN, and with a respective client.

> Why would you keep labeling yourself a generalist?

Because variety and new challenges are the spice of life? All jesting aside, if I had deep passion/believed deeply in something, I would be the specialist for that ("Appointment reminder systems for equine vets") -- but I don't.

This is the best quote I've seen on the subject. Haven't made the transition, and still trying to see what to define myself a specialist as:

"The generalist is drawn to the problem he has not yet solved. His curiosity trumps all else. He feels no discomfort in operating outside of his area of expertise because such an area is broad, shallow and loosely defined. He pursues with passion the new and the different. When the transition is made however, and he becomes used to the benefits of deep expertise—when the client ceding control to someone deserving of such control becomes the norm—he will not be easily enticed back to operating from the powerless position of the generalist. "

I'll save you other curious people the search: The quote is from 'The Win Without Pitching Manifesto' by Blair Enns.

https://www.winwithoutpitching.com/read-it-online/the-passio...

I forgot to reply to this bit:

> Your best month isn't that great. And if you've been at it for over 10 years, you probably have a lot of experience to share. Ever thought about re-assessing yourself, giving yourself the credit you deserve and creating a better pitch for your services?

Oh yes. Been trying to work out where to reposition myself for 18 months now. I've written out my case studies, talked to clients, but can't find a single thread running through the work that ties it all together :)

Hey, I'm working on a new site to make it easier to find freelancing work. I'd love to get feedback from experienced freelancers like yourself, and see if it can make your life much easier :). If you have some time to spare, please reach out: contact at taskrapp.io, or marcell.ortutay at gmail.com. Thanks!

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