Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project | Hacker News Reader

Quiet Linear Mechanical Keyboard Switch Designed by the Open Steno Project

crowdsupply.com

54 pointsrobertfw25 comments

So it's an ALPS/Matias switch. Of which there already exist quiet versions.

Why do you want money again?

The claim that it's easier to get Custom Key Caps for these is an absolute joke. There is very little available in the market for Alps style keycaps vs Cherry MX which is ubiquitous. Injection molding shops would have to have tooling available to make these keycaps. Most of them don't. That's what makes getting custom keys easy or hard, not the mounting shape. I don't even think you can get them in PBT anymore unless you pop them off an SGI Granite keyboard or older Apple keyboards (or with a Japanese layout).

Cherry MX Reds are also not out of wide circulation at all. Reds and Browns are their most popular switch right now! These comparisons are totally disingenuous.

Not to mention Matias switches are super wobbly...Have fun doing those sticker mods.

There are quiet versions of Matias switches, but they are all clicky, which we explicitly don't want because even quiet clicky switches are loud and because of the associated fatigue. Our switch is quiet and non-clicky, which up until now hasn't existed in the Matias line.

I'm not sure I understand your question about wanting money. As much as it would be great to give them away for free, the reality is that it cost us money to produce them and it will cost us money to ship them. We're running this campaign in order to simplify the logistics of offering our extra keys to other people.

Regarding custom key caps, another commentator was correct in saying that we're milling entirely custom shapes from raw materials (aluminum in our case).

As for the circulation of Cherry MX Reds, I could only find them available in small quantities for what seemed to be very high prices, when I could find them in stock at all. The Cherry MX is a great line of switches, but Cherry is doing a poor job of helping people (well, me at least) make new products.

I haven't noticed the Matias switches being super wobbly, but I also don't have a full keyboard built yet. I'll keep an eye out for this.

This and the other Cherry comment capture my cynicism as well.

And the reason I'm cynical about it is that they story they offer doesn't seem to make sense to anyone who has purchased key switches for projects.

So lets break it down. $50 donation gets you 150 switches, they are looking to raise $1000. That is twenty $50 chunks, or 3,000 switches. So what they are really saying is that our vendor has a minimum order quantity (MOQ) of 3,000 switches, and if you all buy some, together we'll get switches and you'll get switches. That at least would be an honest narrative. And hey its helping the Open Steno project so its got that going for it.

The economics of this project aren't based on funding the entire MOQ, which is much more than 3,000 switches. We'll be using many of the switches for our own project, but think there will be plenty left over. The $1,000 funding goal is the amount that makes it worth going through the effort to sort, package, ship, and other logistics. I'll make this clearer on the campaign page. Thanks for the feedback!

That is awesome Howard. If I had a use for 150 switches I would certainly consider contributing. Something else you might add to this page which may help would be an STL file that could be 3D printed for a keycap. Looking at what is provided I don't think there is quite enough information to make one and you would definitely want to test fit it for validation before releasing something like that but it would give folks most everything they needed for building a custom keyboard.

We plan releasing the source files for all custom hardware, including key caps, that we're designing and making for our own keyboard. We have prototypes that we're mostly happy with, but haven't yet nailed down the exact dimensions. Also, our files are in the form that a CNC mill could understand, but as far as I know not suitable yet for a 3D printer. I really like that idea, though, and will keep it in mind for when we do offer our keyboard.

With them using a totally custom shape keycap, a standard keycap would be too far outside the scope for it to be worth their time.

No two makes of Alps keyboard have ever used the same stabilizers I think. Designing that I think would be a pretty big job and Matias has a standard layout for their own boards already (as long as you use Macs).

The sad thing is, if they went on GeekHack or Deskthority, they might just be able to find 20 people willing to group buy Alps switches.

Might.

By custom key cap they mean custom shape. Not custom label. For cherry that will cost you $50k to make the mold. Alps you can mill yourself out of wood.

I'm one of the people behind this project. Yes, the custom key shapes + low activation force are the primary reason we're interested in creating these key switches.

I just picked received the CODE Keyboard with the green switches yesterday and while I was swapping some caps I wondered why they didn't just make the housing clear for the backlighting. This looks cool!

Cherry does have clear housing.

http://www.cherry.de/cid/keymodules_CHERRY_MX1A-LxxA_B.htm

And the following claim seems a bit dubious to me.

> The other contact, pictured above, is gold-plated only on the small area that will actually physically touch the other contact. The reason for this is simply that the process of gold plating weakens the metal being plated, which would reduce the longevity of the key switch.

I'm almost certain they originally wanted Cherry Reds for this project but couldn't get their order qty filled by Cherry either due to lack of availability (they're very popular right now) or there being a high MOQ (Cherry's MOQs are super-duper high).

If they were really serious about ultra-low activation force, Topre has 30g switches available (not that they could have negotiated that contract), but that's unusably low, IMO.

The project may be "open" but they've gone with a key type that's only still supported by one manufacturer...

We evaluated Cherry Reds for the project, but there were several things wrong with them. In order of our priorities:

1. It's very difficult/expensive to make custom key caps that mount to Cherry MX stems. By custom key cap, I mean a completely new shape, like this:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-g_Bi0FseNUk/VGBKMdshu-I/AAAAAAAAAe...

We actually did come up with a method for doing this with Cherry MX switches, but the cost was prohibitive. I'll add more detail on the campaign page to make this clear.

2. The actuation force of Cherry MX Reds was just a bit too high. We're making a stenotype keyboard, which should have a very light touch. The Cherry MX Red might have been marginally acceptable, but we're much happier with the lower actuation force of our switch.

3. As you pointed out, the availability of Cherry MX Reds isn't great.

4. The price of Cherry MX Reds is much higher.

Regarding the Topre switches, I agree that 30g is almost too low. Also, the mounting post for the Topre switches seemed challenging from the perspective of creating custom key caps, though we didn't actually try.

As for the openness of the project and there being only one manufacturer, is your concern about availability, control of the IP, or something else?

Okay. Interesting response here. There's some points I hadn't considered.

1. I see your argument here but I also wonder if there are processes that you have not considered. I don't know if you're familiar with ClickClack's keycaps, but that's an artist who does custom shaped keys. I'm 99% positive, as I've done the same process myself, that he sculpts a master, makes a mould and pours resin keycaps. You can make these in huge bulks quickly for cheap this way. Getting the Cherry MX backing is as simple as cutting the stem off a key and gluing it to your top. It makes choices of plastics/resin more difficult (you can't just mix and pour PBT...) but this process is super cheap. Cheaper than 3d printing and cheaper than machining. You can build a vacuum degasser for $50 + an air compressor.

2. Cherry switches can be spring modded to much lower actuation forces. There are places where you can buy 30g-45g switches, in bulk, and it's probably cheaper than tooling them yourself. I honestly can't imagine using less than 45g and maintaining accuracy, especially on something that's basically close to being a chording keyboard like the Stenotype (but then again, I'm not a steno).

4. I guess it doesn't matter for your use case because you have to make your own keycaps, but for someone who will be using the switches for something else this is not true. Regular keycaps for ALPS switches are either going to be substantially more expensive or someone trying to dump old/excess stock. I don't even know where you could get ALPS keycaps made in a group buy -- people have tried. The campaign page is advertising advantages that really don't exist outside of your specific use case.

That's really my only gripe. I don't see where there would be a use case outside of your specific project. I know folks sitting on huge bulks of ALPS switches that are sitting doing nothing because usually nobody wants them. Forgive my myopia.

Alps is an interesting choice for your project, especially since you don't have to worry about stabilizers at all.

1. The problem wasn't in creating the shape we wanted - that's easy with CNC. The problem was creating the cross mounting post for Cherry. The process that ended up working was somewhat as you suggested: we basically used a lathe to remove material from a standard key cap until just the post was left and then we attached the post with a good adhesive to our custom key caps. The problem with this process is that it is very expensive in terms of labor/time and requires a high degree of precision to ensure uniformity. I think I might eventually make a keyboard using Cherry MX switches using this process, but for the current project the goal is to produce at least 100 keyboards while keeping the cost down. We tried for several months to make the Cherry MX Red work, but ended up deciding Matias was the better option in this case.

2. Modding key switches works well for a single keyboard, but really causes costs to soar if used in production. This wouldn't work for us because one of the main design points of the keyboard we're working on is making it financially accessible to a wide range of people.

4. This is a fair point. Honestly, I'm not too deep into the mechanical keyboard world beyond this one project, so I don't have a good feeling for other people's use cases. My hope, though, is that people do some really strange things with these switches and start innovating in ways I wouldn't have thought of.

Thanks for all your feedback - it's been really helpful. I haven't yet updated the campaign page to reflect it all, but I will soon.

Thanks for the pointer to the clear Cherry housing. I hadn't seen that. I'll look into it more and update the page accordingly.

Regarding the gold plating, what's dubious about this claim?

"Gold-plated connectors" are a common snake-oil in audio electronics. The only benefit it provides is that it doesn't tarnish like copper would. Gold is a worse conductor than copper and it's very soft and brittle. With pieces that are constantly making contact that plating is likely to wear away quickly. You only need it your contact is exposed to air anyway, and then if it is you really need the whole thing to be gold-plated. Also, you'd better have some nickel on between the gold & copper.

If I understand things correctly, anyway.

Ah, yes, I agree that it doesn't make a lick of difference for audio connectors and that advertising gold plating is just a way to jack up the price. For this type of mechanical switch, though, I don't think the copper oxidation would wear away since it's a very light touch and there is very little rubbing movement, just blunt contact. Also, I'm pretty sure that there would be no incentive for companies like Matias to offer gold plating if it weren't really needed - it's just an extra expense and the high-end mechanical switch market is basically nonexistent compared to the high-end audio market.

I've owned a Cherry MX Red keyboard for a few years, and while I like the keyboard itself, I wish I had browns. The tactile feedback of a keypress is really needed for error-resistant typing.

For me, the tactile feedback is what allows me to not bottom out when typing. I feel like a can allow myself to type more lightly on browns than reds.

For $50 you can get a bag of 150 keys. That comes out to $0.33 cents per switch which is really close to their estimated unit price without shipping of $0.30.

Because of the low popularity of ALPS keycaps, the cost and MOQ of the caps themselves are significantly higher.

This is the more expensive way to go.

Since we're manufacturing the key caps ourselves, it's actually a much cheaper way to go for us.

This seems like it might be useful in defending against acoustic side-channel attacks.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com