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Comment by vacri | Hacker News Reader

- There are no chargebacks

This is a huge negative for the customer, though

Bingo. Chargebacks are my way of making sure I have a fallback if the merchant fails to live up to their end of the bargain. I use them as an option of absolute last resort, but the few times I have, I've been very glad that I had the option, and that the credit card companies bent over backwards to shield me from the headaches of the issue.

I also had a lot of headache when a seller charged me twice and tried to send me another product because I had to charge back several transactions while explaining "yes, the FIRST one was legitimate and I got he product, but the later ones are not".

I had to charge back twice because the seller kept on charging me on the same credit card number! At least with Bitcoin you're only in for whatever you pay.

companies who fail to live up to their end of the bargin in a bitcoin world won't survive long. I've been shopping on the internet since the 90's and not once have I had to place a chargeback.. Chargebacks are mostly fraud and people wanting shit for free.. In turn goods become higher priced and that cost is passed onto all the other customers.. Anytime I have been unhappy with an internet purchase the company has always given me a refund. The need for chargebacks is truly minimal. Any company that wants to keep their customers is going to issue a refund. Companies that won't are shady and need to go out of business anyway.

>companies who fail to live up to their end of the bargin in a bitcoin world won't survive long.

Yes, just long enough, like Butterfly Labs. (Credit card purchasers: could do a chargeback. Bitcoin purchasers: SOL.)

Chargebacks and reversibility in general are essential to consumers. If shit goes wrong, it's gotta be fixable.

(This is also why nobody actually wants smart contracts. They know that the plot of Dr Strangelove is literally an irreversible smart contract going wrong. Consumers want fixability, business-to-business wants the option of lawyering out of a bad deal. The only people who want smart contracts are the businesses who currently screw over their customers with mandatory arbitration clauses.)

Which is why a 2-3% discount for Bitcoin purchases is appropriate. With reputable merchants, I would be willing to give up the ability to charge back for an additional 1-2% discount.

No idea why this was down voted. This is a very legitimate comment. When I'm wrongfully charged or sent goods that aren't what's advertised and support doesn't help or reply. A charge back offers the protection a buyer needs.

If you insist on keeping the risk on the seller side then what's wrong with good old Charge On Delivery?

You increase the number of non-payers by not only having the fraudulent ones but also the lazy ones who delay payment, the forgetful ones who keep forgetting to pay and the ones that don't get your bills. Then you add on the cost of trying to collect from all those people. Cheaper to just charge up front and accept that some tiny percentage will be fraudulent.

That's why the seller has to give the money to the consumer. The seller avoids the customers who scam which is a non-0% amount of the time, so if the seller is trusted this would be a good thing to do. I'm talking Amazon-level trust.

I mentioned this in another comment, but this is why I would encourage consumers to only take a discount like this from reputable sellers.

eg I would gladly take a 2% discount with Amazon, as it would save me hundreds over time.

On the other hand, if I were trying out a new SaaS product I would start with a credit card and opt to use BTC once I trusted the company and their product, much like I wouldn't buy a 1 year subscription for a 10% discount without first using the product for a month or two.

In addition: When you implement 3D Secure (Mastercard's Mastercode or VISA's VBV), you are also not liable for chargeback. In Asia, most payment gateways implement 3D secure.

Which is why multi-signature transactions eliminate this negative.

What percentage of transactions, in the real (if small) world of buying things with Bitcoin, are multisig?

Not sure, but you might be able to gain some insight due to the fact that multisig addresses all start with a "3".

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