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FWIW, had pretty good experiences with the five Thinkpads, private and company boxes, that I was using at one point or another. There are things that could be (a lot) better - battery life on the W530 and, related to that, the ugly, ginormous brick of a charger that it comes with - but, all things considered, I will remain a Thinkpad customer, since I am not aware of better alternatives. The machines work without fail, and survive incidents like a fall from the overhead luggage compartment on a plane.

Crapware doesn't bother me, since that gets wiped before I start using the box, including the biggest offender of all them crapwares - MS Windows. Unless you're concerned about one of those disk-firmware-rewiring NSA uglies, that's a foolproof solution to the nastyware problem.

I'm planning to buy a new laptop in the near future and Lenovo definitiely goes out of the list. It's ridiculous where things are going in tech - everyone is trying to squeeze you like a lemon. Smart TVs that insert ads in your private videos and listen to everything you say, smartphones tracking your every move, e-mail clients scanning your mails, laptops installing spyware, cars that can be shutdown remotely, planned obsolescence getting worse and worse.. and that's only the tip of the iceberg - I wonder how much more similar bullshit is out there that we don't know about. Fuck all of that, I'll stick to good ol' "dumb" things as long as I can.

Exactly. But you also stated the reason - "everyone is trying to squeeze you like a lemon". Welcome to capitalism. At first, as the low-hanging fruits are collected, people benefit. Then, as Orz say, there is juice squeezing and then we are not so frumple.

I can attest that thinkpad quality is on the decline, linux support too (not mentioning the stupidity of experimenting with new ways of doing keyboards[1]) but it's not that bad yet.

Hardware is good, in case of trouble on-site warranty works well (once you've learned your way through the ibm website). Be informed about what you buy, skip the comically broken models (see adaptive keyboard) use common sense and your thinkpad will be good. Nothing out of the usual when buying tech stuff.

Though in a not so distant future if lenovo declines continue, it may be wise to stay away from their brand altogether.

[1]: http://arstechnica.com/staff/2014/01/stop-trying-to-innovate...

Lenovo has learnt from that mistake though, the X1 Carbon Gen 3 basically has the keyboard from the Gen1 paired with the build quality and high quality IPS screen from the second gen.

This keyboard screwup was one of the reasons I went to Dell E series instead of Lenovo Thinkpad. If you are a heavy keyboard user, not providing dedicated Function keys is a big no-no. It is not about saving space either; my dell E7240 is only 12.5 inches but manages to have a fully functional keyboard. Besides, outstanding keyboard was a big part of the Thinkpad - what were they thinking mucking around with that?

I'll add I've witnessed bad mechanical design from Lenovo.

A friend bought a $1000 laptop (U330 touch) from them and a piece of plastic holding a hinge broke. When I looked at it, it was clear that the part could have been 10 times (yes, 10) thicker without adding much weight (about a gram I guess) and probably zero cost.

I find this mistake nearly unacceptable but the evil part comes when you ask for warranty and they tell you that you must have done something wrong, why would a hinge break otherwise? And you accepted the warranty terms, so its their right to say so.

Quality control also was an issue as the laptop first came with a malfunctioning keyboard and a non operating touch screen.

So yeah, now is not a good time to buy anything from Lenovo.

I've had great experiences with the ThinkPad T420, but after this news I'll likely never be buying a Lenovo product again. A damn shame.

I'm tempted to believe that's the last great Thinkpad. Until this morning I was being tempted by the new X1 Carbon, even with its non-traditional keyboard. Not so much now.

Not sure what you mean with "non-traditional keyboard", but Lenovo did change the keyboard in the 3rd generation Thinkpad X1 Carbons, reverting the layout of the 2nd generation to a more conventional one: with six rows instead of five. Glad they did.

Ars Technica just reviewed the 3rd generation version: http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/02/thinkpad-x1-carbon-re....

As far as I am concerned this one has the non-traditional keyboard (CTRL is NOT in the lower left corner).

Mess with my muscle-memory and you're sure I will never buy your laptop. Same reason I'll never consider MacBooks: Non-standard keyboard.

Oh man I hate keyboards like that. If the keyboard is causing me to hit wrong keys, it's the keyboard that's wrong.

I used to feel the same until I remapped CapsLock to Insert on a MacBook running Linux so I could regain the ability to paste with Shift-Insert. After that I realized that none of my other keyboards had Insert in the same location, so having a non-standard keyboard wasn't unique to Apple. Now I try to remap certain keys on all my machines to the smallest set they share in common, so I can take my muscle memory with me.

In the BIOS for most Thinkpads I've used recently there is a setting to swap the Fn and Ctrl keys.

> As far as I am concerned this one has the non-traditional keyboard (CTRL is NOT in the lower left corner).

OK, that's one part of non-traditionalism :-) Luckily, the Ctrl and Fn keys' functions can be swapped in the BIOS (but obviously, the key labels will stay put).

I referred to the strange setup of the Caps Lock key, and the missing 6th row with function keys. (Although the functioning of the function keys is different in the 3rd generation model than in the 1st generation model).

My current T440s is pretty much all I ever wanted in a laptop. But yeah, this will make me think twice when the time comes to replace it. (hopefully not any time soon. Sweet sweet battery time!)

Then again, the first thing I did when I bought it was install an extra SSD and install Linux.

The T420 is, in my opinion, the last known good computer that Lenovo put out. I bought one in 2011 and still use it (sparingly) today. That is a rock solid laptop with a fantastic touchpad/keyboard.

We bought T440s a year or two later and both were just abysmal. The trackpad, the keyboard, everything is crappy and fails to work properly. No one at our company would use them and they sit in a closet now. I've been monitoring Lenovo's laptops recently and they all seem to be getting worse and worse.

You will find a lot of people who say things like: The [insert laptop model here] is, in my opinion, the last known good computer that [insert laptop brand here] put out. In the end it's just that, a personal opinion.

I have read similar things about basically every laptop(heck even cars, TVs, Fridges) brand in existence.

What was the point of this comment? I said in the first line it was my opinion.

Is it even possible to buy a Windows laptop right now with only the OS installed?

This is exactly why I've been recommending Chromebooks to anyone who asks my advice for about a year now.

Microsoft sell their own laptops, in US. They are said to be good.

I think Microsoft sells those in its stores but even then I'm pretty sure they come with a few things but mostly from the manufacturer.

It would sure be nice to bring home a Windows machine that only had Windows on it and any necessary but minor applications from the manufacturer (like a settings application or drivers and not some photo sharing spyware).

You can buy "Microsoft Signature" machines from the MS stores and online. Hopefully the words will spread.

Wow haven't heard of those before, actually kind of like the idea of buying a PC and knowing there is an untouched version of Windows on it (unless you consider IE malware) :)

I bought my last laptop this way, and it's been very satisfying to own. There was no funny business, it's just straight-up Windows. It didn't even have any stickers on it except for a tiny Intel sticker.

MSFT should really be pushing these more, seems like a great opportunity

An unfucked machine is the superspecial case, something to boast about. Let that sink for a moment.

All laptops contain something which some people consider bloatware, because it is difficult to draw the line.

For instance, is it "only the OS installed" if it includes hardware-specific support for the display adapter, or a fingerprint reader?

Anyway, all laptops I have seen include either a generic Windows OS installation disk, or an option to order one for the price of mailing cost. But of course even with these you might have something included which you do not consider "only the OS".

That seems like a pretty easy line to draw. If the software is effectively a device driver - OK; otherwise - no.

Well, not for me. Like, what about the login management related to fingerprint reader? The reader and device driver are quite useless by themselves if you cannot use them for login. So the laptop vendor obviously bundles the driver and application together. And then you get an app that hooks itself in the place where you normally give your password. And might hook another application which does an alternative login method using the built-in camera (facial recognition).

With Windows even if you buy the boxed version it still doesn't mean you are free from hardware vendors fuckery. The necessary drivers are quite often bundled with shitware.

It's usually possible to unpack the driver installer, find the .INF file, and point Windows at it - this gives you the driver without any of the bloatware.

(An unnecessary hassle, I agree)

Yep. Especially with the fuckery that FTDI did.

What did they do? If they detect a "counterfeit" FTDI (in other words, a clone not necessarily claiming to be an FTDI), the driver bricks your chip!

Yeah, you can fix it using Linux, but it's a pain in the ass.

Or use Linux and be away from this cancer of MS Windows ecosystem.

The alternative to this is buying an OEM copy of your Windows OS, and hoping the driver situation works out.

There isn't any need to spend any money on an additional Windows license [1].

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9073739

Yes it is, you can even buy laptops with no OS pre-installed or a gnu/linux distro.

Chromebooks are the worst possible thing, I tell everyone to stay away from these crippled google branded piece of slavery.

I advise either a second hand quality laptop or a brand new one while budgeting a little extra for cleaning the crap that manufacturers preload inside to allow for such a low selling price.

Chromebooks are great. I've recommended them to at least a dozen people by now and they are all super happy with them. And free from MITM!

Free from Lenovo's MITM anyway.

Microsoft Surface is straight from MS - no bloat/malware. However I wouldn't buy it now since v4 is soon to come.

> Is it even possible to buy a Windows laptop right now with only the OS installed?

Microsoft's Windows Installation Media Creation Tool [1] enables you to download a clean Windows 8.1 ISO that can be used to re-install the operating system and wipe out all of the preloaded bloatware on any PC.

To do the same with a Windows 7 PC, visit Microsoft's Software Recovery website [2].

From Windows 8.1 Update 1 onwards, there is a built-in PowerShell cmdlet called Export-WindowsDriver [3] that will backup all of your third-party drivers prior to reinstalling the OS.

  Export-WindowsDriver –Online -Destination c:\DriverBackup

On older versions of Windows, DoubleDriver [4] is a good alternative.

Once you have created a bootable USB flash drive from the Windows ISO [5], another useful tip is to create a folder called $WinPEDriver$ in the root of the drive and copy the drivers you backed up into here. Windows will automatically install the drivers found in the $WinPEDriver$ folder during installation of the OS.

[1] http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-8/create-reset-re...

[2] http://www.microsoft.com/en-us/software-recovery

[3] https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dn614084.aspx

[4] http://www.softpedia.com/get/System/System-Info/Double-Drive...

[5] https://rufus.akeo.ie/

Good list of resources, but I'd like to add that the Windows 7 recovery page doesn't accept OEM license keys. If you try to enter the key from the sticker on your laptop, you will most likely be told to contact your hardware provider. Which means you're stuck with their crapware installer.

I've purchased two post-acquisition Lenovos. A Thinkpad X1 Carbon first gen and, when it was stolen, a second gen. Both are truly excellent laptops, perfectly on par with the Thinkpad R40 and the X61t I had before.

The second gen X1 Carbon has two "innovations" I could live without. A clickpad and an LCD serving as function row keys. I must not be alone in my woes, as the third gen X1 Carbon reverted the change and has normal trackpad buttons and real function keys.

Other than that, the same quality Thinkpad build. It's not a war tank as the R40 was but, then again, it does not have the weight constraints that allow for a rollcage.

I know it is fashionable to say Lenovo fumbled the Thinkpad brand but, at least in the top of the line products, this isn't true. Of course, this is anecdotal, based on my company's purchases and nothing else. If you listen in forums, the landscape is much as the one here on HN (even if 90% of those who speak never bought a "chinese" Thinkpad)

I have a X230 and I'm super happy with it. The quality is beyond everything I have experienced with laptops. I have a newer Dell E-series at work now and it's ok, but lack the same quality feel imo.

I suspect the cheaper Lenovo laptops are shitty though.

Hell, who do we go with now? I'm a sys/web admin/devops by day and we just buy whatever is the hottest Lenovo, image them, and send them off for staff to use. They're rock solid from a hardware perspective and their laptops are usually top notch (ignoring the redesigned trackpad issues, they're pretty much perfect for business use).

We've tried HP and Dell in the past with the same ugly results. Horrible default images full of crapware, though not MITM bad. The only difference is that we had 10x the hardware issues with Dell and HP. We always need to make our own images. Windows OEM is a nightmare of shit crapware, which is a shame as the stock windows product is actually, dare I say, good? At least good for business use cases.

I also find it amusing that anytime there's some kind of issue in the US people instantly yell NSA, but thus far no one has thought to think this could be the CCP's attempt to spy on people by weakening SSL. I'm sure its trivial for them to grab the private key from Lenovo. Seems like the cyberwars are heating up.

Personally, I hope this becomes a major scandal. This deserves lots more press. In fact, every anti-virus product should remove this and the certificate. Anything short of that is irresponsible. This is congressional investigation worthy right here.