Nootropics aren't just for tech millionaires | Hacker News Reader

Nootropics aren't just for tech millionaires

techcrunch.com

30 pointsgeoffwoo20 comments

This article sucks, and is basically marketing for the new wave of nootropic companies. I think nootropic use is an issue that will enter the societal conversation relatively soon, but it's important to note that for the most part, the younger generation has already gone half-in on nootropic use-- while many were non-consensually plied with nootropics by their parents/teachers to increase their productivity, nearly all have experimented with nootropics to some degree on their own, even if it's just with coffee. I am of the opinion that a good place for us to land would be the removal of any and all limits on what a person is allowed to consume in the name of self-modification, so long as it doesn't hurt anyone other than the user. In practice, most nootropics are whitemarket or greymarket, with a number of notable entries being prescription-only.

Nootropics are for everyone, and always have been due to the fact that having greater cognitive ability is a large factor in success at most tasks.

Coffee (caffeine) is the most consumed nootropic in the history of the planet, and is probably the safest. There are probably a number of other equally useful yet harmless compounds out there that are ripe for discovery, but I wouldn't exactly put my money on the options that this article suggests.

I've experimented with nootropics extensively, and here are some of my findings:

1. Piracetam makes me very spacey and distant

2. Modafinil is good for staying awake without jitters, but otherwise useless

3. Adderall is too stimulative and leads to jittery, coked-out thoughts

4. Caffeine is a winner

5. Weed improves creativity but makes tracing the logical steps of your thoughts more difficult

6. Fish oil helps reduce skin dryness but nothing else that is detectable

The broad stroke of your thinking is in line with ours -- it'll be inevitable. However, we do think it's important to start the dialogue and bring in policy makers as nootropics get more mainstream and as more exotic, unregulated/prescription drugs get roped into the scene. For example, sourcing unregulated research chemicals from labs in China or India zip-tied up in large, plastic baggies is sketchy. Bringing nootropics out of their current 'homebrew' status will really push the market forward.

You should try your caffeine with l-theanine if you don't like an over-stimulated, jittery effect. l-theanine is a pro-drug for GABA, crosses the blood-brain barrier, and is shown to ameliorate some of the edge off stimulants. Our indiegogo campaign for SPRINT makes it really easy to use: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sprint-declaring-war-on-a...

L-theanine has been on my list for a while. I agree that random RCs from Chinese factoring labs are likely to lead to people getting hurt, but right now, that's part of the game that people are willing to play to get an edge when stuff like Adderall (the layman's view of a nootropic holy grail) is illegal without a scrip. Legal and safe nootropics are a good goal to work for, but frankly I wouldn't expect any kind of legislative proactiveness on it-- wait until kids are dying or getting maimed by mystery RCs, because that is when their backlash against nootropics will come.

I checked out your indiegogo campaign and noticed the following:

"Geoff and I have been friends since going to college at Stanford, where we both studied Computer Science. We've scored 99th %ile on the big 4 tests: ACT, SAT, GRE, and GMAT. We know how to work and excel in some of the most challenging, demanding, and exciting academic environments in the world."

Do either of you have any kind of experience in neurobiology, biochemistry, or physiology? I understand that your product is basically a repackaging of confirmed-safe chemicals, but without some actual background knowledge your chemical ratios as well as pathway optimization will be mostly guesswork...

I would suggest trying Vyvanse[1] instead of Adderall. It's available by prescription and, being an amphetamine, is schedule II (meaning there are rules on how much you're allowed to have at one time, I think 30/month). Nevertheless, it has greatly increased my productivity with minimal side-effects; the only side-effect I've noted to date is diminished appetite, but it does seem to have worn off over time.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisdexamfetamine

What a terrible article. It takes all the interesting parts regarding psychonaut exploration / mind expansion, frames it in "revolutionary" terms because of an association with technology, and ends with the banal conclusion of "More research in this field is necessary." Could get about a B in a high school English class though.

Citing Reddit is interesting, if there wasn't something called Erowid that was trying to do research / public service for years and years and years...there's some great potential in learning more about the mind and the substances that can enhance talents or treat issues, but I'm inherently skeptical that the VC/SV environment is to be trusted with that kind of "disruption." Can't even re-invent the taxi service without protocols to prevent kidnapping and/or trust the leadership not to race-to-the-bottom by digging up dirt on critics. Yeah, anecdotal, but relevant to my trust factor.

Sorry you feel that way. As TechCrunch / HN is a predominantly Silicon Valley centered community, we grounded the current work in nootropics with analogies and metaphors that make sense in the tech world today. I think this biohacking / nootropics ties into the broader context of the quantified self theme that many, many technologists are working on.

Yeah, well, not mentioning Erowid is pretty counter-intuitive to the entire article. It's ignorance dressed up as education. The path has already been started long before VC/SV smelled something interesting. Maybe if VC/SV had a great track record in investing in actual research science, which in fairness is being choked and driving people out of the profession, then maybe there'd be some hope. Thus far, I see far more risk than reward in complimenting or encouraging the VC/SV community to pursue this field.

Also, citing movies like Lucy and Limitless just feels juvenile. Why not strap on Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas for some counter balance? Drugs is drugs is drugs...

I'd say erowid leans more heavily towards recreational drugs which is out of the scope of what we wanted to talk about, but note taken. Definitely will shoutout erowid in any future discussions.

Lucy and Limitless were used as a writing hook - cheesiness noted, but they're relevant and accessible examples of how nootropics are entering the mainstream consciousness.

This user submitted for the same company 2 days ago[1] and was subsequently flag-killed, it's no surprised that they sponsored to write this article for TechCrunch as well.

Their product is Bacopa + L-Theanine + Caffeine, which other than the caffeine, shows little nootropic properties. L-Theanine has only been weakly shown to relax people, and has had no scientific consensus that it improves attention.[2] Bacopa has only 1 study citing any enhancements from attention, but those people had ADD; the only positive was a majority consensus that bacopa enhanced memory, but required significant (4-6 weeks) dosage in order to see measurable results.[3]

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9028594

[2] http://examine.com/supplements/Theanine/

[3] http://examine.com/supplements/Bacopa+monnieri/

I remain unconvinced that Nootrobox's mixture of caffeine, green tea extract, and herbal supplements is anything more than an expensive stay-awake pill.

Check out our 2nd product line SPRINT if you want a really effective 'stay-awake' pill. We think it compares really well against alternatives like espresso, red bull, 5-hour energy especially for working.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/sprint-declaring-war-on-a...

That's the thing, I don't want a more expensive stay awake pill. I take a caffeine pill every morning and it does a good enough job at waking me up and keeping me that way, and it's less expensive than coffee. It seems to me what you've done is thrown green tea extract and a few herbal supplements into the mix, given it a fancy name and logo, and jacked the price up. That is not a "smart drug" in my opinion, so labeling your products as nootropics seems like false advertising.

I looked into (and did a trial of) truBrain (trubrain.com). They seem to be trying hard to be authentic and have scientific integrity, which is nice in this industry. But still when I looked into the research behind their ingredients, most of the support was more along the lines of 'keeping your sanity while aging', which is great, but not exactly what a a 30 yr old is looking for. I think I'll keep my money for a while as the nootropic field matures.

Yes, I encourage you to do your own research. A lot of the chemicals have not been formally studied on a significant group of healthy adults. A lot of the models in studies are mice models or alzheimer patients, etc.

These articles inevitability gloss over a lot of the newer, higher risk, compounds that are used.

We're working with TechCrunch on a more in-depth series of posts, including one that will cover the classification and regulation around the three broad classes of compounds: 'supplements', 'prescription', and 'unregulated' research chemicals. We'll get into the world of noopept, piracetam, and DARPA-funded peptides etc. for you guys.

This is interesting. I've dabbled with nootropics for reducing anxiety and helping with sleep, and I've been rather pleased with the results. This is obviously anecdotal, and could well be a placebo, but frankly I don't care. Whether or not it "works" the effects have been positive for me.

Curious what compounds you've dabbled with.

Link bait?

Hard to cite sources if we don't link to it!

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