Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses. Either you let the company go bankrupt or you nationalize.
Also I clearly need a job in banking...
Waaat. I think the government should stop bailing out businesses. Either you let the company go bankrupt or you nationalize.
Also I clearly need a job in banking...
I'm not sure the argument applies here, since I'm not sure how many companies were hiring executives during the time frame.
I remember an instance in the past where a executive organized a 'hack day'. All he did was drop in email to the company cafeteria to have a tea and biscuits arranged. The dude didn't even show up to the event. At the end of the quarter I remember him getting a neat cash reward for 'thought leadership' regarding that hack day.
A lot were fired, they hired back, then fired again. Not sure what the overall impact had been, but for the ones I know, after the crisis it has been like a continuous Christmas. Lot of cash/cheap money to buy cheap flat/houses all around, kids and early retirement at 32.
The problem is, that currently nationalization is only possible in most countries, if you fully pay the owner. Changing this would in some countries require constitutional changes. I think having a special rule for banks and the option to split would be a feasible change.
Just, you know, the taxpayers are not the owners, because .
Hm, maybe it doesnt really matter if taxpayers would have become the owners, because in any case they would have payed for their losses but the profits would not magically find their way into taxpayers pockets, instead it would be some new term instead of owners like "facilitators" "workers".
In the end, money doesnt really matter, what matters is which people take decisions concerning all other people, power.
For starters, the government can go to the banks shareholders and tell their shares are going to be worth $X or they won't put money in and the business will go bankrupt.
If the shareholders manage to find another investor, then great.
In the UK, this happened with e.g. Royal Bank of Scotland, where the government gradually acquired a larger proportion of the bank as it provided capital until it owned the vast majority (in 2012 it owned about 82% - I don't know what it stands at now). While nationalisation of RBS was certainly not cheap in terms of pounds, it was firesale prices in terms of the size and turnover of the business, because the government took on massive risk as well.
But the key part is that by providing the cash infusion in return for shares, the government is also participating in the upside if they manage to turn the bank around, and shareholders took a substantial hit in the form of massive dilution (though they are set to recover quite a bit as the bank recovers).
And in a way, the big banks are effectively nationalized in the U.S. We do maintain parallel governance structures because fully nationalized banks ( like the Bank of England in Britain's Mercantilist heyday ) are ... well, mercantilist.
Is this supposed to be a figure of speech suggesting Canadian banks policies are so similar they are essentially the same bank? The three largest of the Big Five (RBC, TD and Scotia) are so similar in size none of them can even be said to lead the market.
Thank you for the correction, Joel.
The pertinent EconTalk is here: http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2014/02/calomiris_and_h.htm...
> Also I clearly need a job in banking...
If you want to become a good cook, get a cooking job. If you want to earn good money, get a money (banking) job :)
Nope. Explanation here:
http://www.interfluidity.com/v2/2587.html
Cash is not king in financial markets. Risk is. The government bailed out major banks by assuming the downside risk of major banks when those risks were very large, for minimal compensation. In particular, the government 1) offered regulatory forbearance and tolerated generous valuations; 2) lent to financial institutions at or near risk-free interest rates against sketchy collateral (directly or via guarantee); 3) purchased preferred shares at modest dividend rates under TARP; 4) publicly certified the banks with stress tests and stated “no new Lehmans”. By these actions, the state assumed substantially all of the downside risk of the banking system. The market value of this risk-assumption by the government was more than the entire value of the major banks to their “private shareholders”. On commercial terms, the government paid for and ought to have owned several large banks lock, stock, and barrel. Instead, officials carefully engineered deals to avoid ownership and control.
...
After assuming the banking system’s downside risk, the US government engineered a wide variety of favorable circumstances that helped banks “earn” their way back to quasi-health. The government provided famous and obvious transfers like unwinding AIG swaps at 100¢ on the dollar. It forced short-term yields to zero and created an environment in which medium-term interest rates would be capped for several years, granting banks a near-risk-free arbitrage for a while. It emitted trillions in excess reserves on which it continues to pay interest. It forewent investigations and prosecutions that by law it should actively pursue, and settled what enforcement it could not avoid for token fees. Then there are the things conspiracy theorists and cranks like me suspect but cannot prove: that the government and the Fed have been less than aggressive in minimizing their costs when they or entities they control (AIG, Fannie, Freddie) transact with large banks, that they have left money on the table where doing so could be hidden in arcane accounts or justified as ordinary transaction expenses and trading losses. Large banks have enjoyed some rather extraordinary results for allegedly efficient markets, quarters with large trading profits and no or very few losing days. Government housing policy is pretty overtly subject to a constraint that interventions must not provoke loss realizations for banks carrying bad loans at inflated values, or interfere with servicing revenues. (If you think I am overconspiratorial, I’m still waiting for an innocent explanation of this, from 1991.)
I do think, however, that after having been "bailed out", a business should have a very high tax rate on profits (90 - 99%) for a number of years/decades.
Yeah, towards the big banks I definitely would.
EDIT: I believe that the bailout was needed and it did (IMO) prevent significant negative ripples from flowing through our financial system. What I really despise is the lack of discipline and regulatory oversight during the bailout process. This left a very sour taste in many struggling Americans and demonstrated that our political structures are incapable of focused, regulated, and disciplined action.
You can make a heck of a lot of money if you kill the economy, get bailed out and get to keep the properties and houses of the little guys that don't get the same benefits.
If you really wanted the economy to recover quickly you would be bailing out taxpayers not big corporations.
Also the regulatory situation in Europe is still much more stringent than in the US. In US banking there are a load of utter time wasting rules that provide little sanity to the issues suffered
I would be interested in legislation that changes this. If a private bank (I don't think there are many truly private banks anymore) wants to give whatever bonuses it wants, I really don't care.
But once public money is involved, I agree we need some strict controls.
Isn't the point of the article that this is demonstrably untrue?
Part of the reason for the discrepancy at the time of the crash is that, until the liquidity crisis gummed everything up, most of the catastrophic losses where in a relatively niche area. A lot of the other parts of the banks did continue to make money.
Then when the liquidity crisis hit, the view was, generally, that significant parts of the businesses were still fundamentally sound so there was no point losing good people as they'd be needed to build things back up again.
I happen to think that all this is sensible up to, but not including, the bit about losing good people. This was fundamentally self serving and tended to define "good" as those who were successful is a overly risky environment.
What doesn't make sense is that anyone involved with the losses or in the management chain of anyone who was should still get any bonus at all. That, obviously, includes the CEO. If the CEOs of these companies still received large bonuses -- and my impression is that they did -- that is fucked up.
To my mind the worst of those was Stan O'Neill. He got kicked out when it was just a disaster but not yet a catastrophe (when the mortgage losses were known but before the liquidity crunch) so he walked away with something heinous like $160mm.
This is short-term thinking; it gets you out of the mess you're in today, but it encourages more of the behavior that caused the mess to begin with.
$614 billion was disbursed
$667 billion was recouped
For a difference of $53.1 billion, i.e. 8.6%. [1]
8.6% is insultingly low compensation to use taxpayer money that, by the way, could have been spent on more beneficial investments (infrastructure, education, healthcare) to bail out private companies who were the victims of their own greed and poor governance. FWIW the average junk bond yield in 2009 was above 20% [2].
[1] http://projects.propublica.org/bailout/ [2] http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/18/markets/bondcenter/junk_bond...
> 8.6% is insultingly low compensation to use taxpayer money
So, money was made?
> could have been spent on more beneficial investments (infrastructure, education, healthcare) to bail out private companies who were the victims of their own greed and poor governance.
Why couldn't it still be used on infrastructure, education, or healthcare?
Also the country would survive a depression if it really came down to that, the bank wouldn't survive a bankruptcy.
So the playing field are fairly even when it comes to having leverage.
But when reviewing the decision afterwards, I think we need to reject lines of argument that the government did really great on the deal so it's not that bad what happened. We don't want it to happen again, we don't want to be in a no-other-options situation.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-nkdzCkw8Rr0/U-qiPe1Tf-I/AAAAAAAARS...
I'd suggest that's a much more direct and obvious economic impact than some maybe-perhaps about driving investment overseas. (How, exactly? Do you think money would suddenly stampede out of the US if regulators developed a spine and jailed the delinquent operators who caused the crash?)
Anywway - clearly the decision was political. It was made for the benefit of the banker caste, and not for the general population.
The underlying problem is unearned privilege.
There's no rational reason for these bonuses. But bankers pay themselves these sums because they know they can, irrespective of the incredible damage they cause to the rest of the economy.
Thats not what happened when the banks regardless of contracts still gave out large bonuses many times more than the return to the taxpayers.
That simply doesn't add up.
Example: The gov only made 8.5%, but if the US costs have increased 16% over the same period (because of a depression), the overall return is more like 24.5%, ignoring the additional costs of a depression.
I don't know the details of when the money was disbursed and when the money was recuperated, but if it were disbursed in 2008, and recouped in, say, 2014, there was a 10% rate of inflation, which devalues the currency to the point that no, money was not made.
If 2013, the rate of inflation was 8.2%, which leaves a .4% "profit", assuming no other costs.
If 2012, the rate of inflation was 6.6%, leaving a 2% profit, etc.
Of course, this assumes the money wouldn't have performed in any way just sitting in the government coffers, and I honestly don't know enough to even begin to evaluate whether it would have.
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/CPIAUCSL.txt
edit: computation done by comparing Jan 1 2012 to Jan 1 2013, etc.
It is certainly a better deal than the Irish bailout, which will never be paid back and amounted to 100% of GDP.
For the government's balance sheet, getting paid back 8.6% is a lot more reliable than your gut instinct of infrastructure or education or (especially!) health care.
The point of the bailout was to throw all the might of the State behind the sector, in a "ye shall not pass" stance that basically stated that either we cut these banks some slack or our current civilization would burn in flames.
It worked, because people got the message and business eventually went back to normal. We can disagree on whether it was "good enough" (I thought the opportunity for deeper changes was ripe, but I'm just an old-school eurosocialist myself), but I don't think any other entity could have done it except Nation-States.
Wait a minute, just a minute. The way I see it, the US government didn't disarm a nuclear bomb, it just saved Goldman Sachs (and it's creditors AIG) and let Lehman Brothers die. Smart choice by Henry Paulson, I'd expect no less by a former senior GS manager.
It used tax-payer money and I'd be angry if I were an American. I'm angry at the Greek government who did the same thing (among many other things), but then again. I live in Greece, I get a choice (More than 30 parties run in the elections last time I checked...). In the US I get the feeling that you can vote Democrats or Republicans. Largely disputable policies like this, are never going to change.
I was wrong. It's largely regarded as a bone-headed move today. It was the start of the meltdown.
Greece is another matter; the problem there was not with the bailout, but with stupid terms imposed by the troika to cover debts. In fact, if the troika had behaved with Greece in the same way the US government did with US banks (putting up cash right away, no questions asked), Greece would not have suffered what it did.
quickly tabs over to lookup Apple's balance sheet
nope. but give it another few years. ;-)
None but no single institution needed that much. Private investors, especially when working together, could have certainly stumped up funds for individual institutions. In fact, in the case of AIG such an overture by Chinese investors was rejected: http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2014/10/aig-bailout-trial-bom...
[1] http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2008/10/the-problem-was-never...
I vaguely agree with that sentiment, but the problem in practice is that government sucks at running things. They introduce layers of infrastructure that business doesn't and turn things into political footballs.
Although thinking about that for a moment, its a big problem on its own...
Because a company that needs to be bailed out was doing a great job...
Anyway, this is pretty clearly about politics, so... article flagged.
Edit: I can't reply to you for some reason, but I didn't downvote you. However, saying "downvote" instead of just doing it, and then flaunting your karma score and elevating yourself to the position of de-facto moderator seems much like saying "here is MY political opinion, and now I will work to shut down any further discussion on the subject."
Also: I don't really care about your downvotes, because I've accumulated more than enough of this otherwise useless 'karma' that I'm happy to spend in order to make HN better by keeping politics and 'outrage stories' off of it.
As a result of this Norway now has the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world. It's pretty hard to make direct comparisons given the differences in their populations and economies, but a fairly broad range (i.e. left and right [1][2][3][4]) of people seem to think that this was a wasted opportunity and that if it was managed better they'd have a lot more to show for the last 3 1/2 decades. I'd tend to agree.
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/north-s... [2] http://www.bbc.com/news/business-19871411 [3] http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21570842-oil-ma... [4] http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/04/thatcher-and-no...
edit: A little more digging seems to indicate that I was painting with slightly broad strokes. Norway do indeed operate some sort of licensing scheme according to the "North Sea oil" wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Sea_oil), so it is not entirely operated by Statoil.
I believe the licensing system also takes into account investment and effects on local economy to an extent that creates substantial capital inflow beyond what you'd otherwise see.
In fact the UK government is expected to make a tidy profit when it privatises RBS again.
Have you ever had any interaction with any large business? They are bureaucratically indistinguishable from governments.
I can only conclude that the people saying things like "think healthcare sucks now, wait 'till the government's in charge!" have never actually had to personally deal with the healthcare system.
Actually, the only thing that's hit the "1/4 as bad" mark is the health care exchange, and my problems with it are chiefly attributable to 1) no standard Internet-Age-friendly national ID card or similar, so identity/citizenship issues are still ad-hoc "send us a fax and mail us a copy of your drivers license, social security card, and birth certificate" nonsense, which is a problem with far more than just interactions with government, and 2) private health insurance is still a major part of the picture.
It's like a machine to generate stress and take your money, with treating illness as a side effect. I'd gladly take single-payer over the dubious and mostly not practically available "freedoms" our current system affords me.
Actually, there is no evidence of this. See this report that compares the Govt run industries before and after privatisation: http://www.psiru.org/reports/public-and-private-sector-effic...
"The results are remarkably consistent across all sectors and all forms of privatisation and outsourcing: there is no empirical evidence that the private sector is intrinsically more efficient"
Even if it was more efficient, $31 billion of corrupt bonuses on top = no different from an inefficient government.
Exactly this. I've spent years in both sectors. People suck at running things, not governments.
Government departments will often be more bureaucratic for the simple reason that they have many additional roles to their primary ones: They are subject to openness and audit criteria that no private business is; they're subject to leadership systems that need to be resilient to far more frequent and drastic changes than in most businesses; they're subject to performance measurement across a far wider set of criteria than most private businesses etc.
The government could be no worse than a management team that has already proven its dedication to running the company into the ground.
Seriously, Nevada's state government couldn't turn a profit running a brothel.
What, like General Motors?
What you need is to be a partner.