Internships Abroad: Unpaid, with a $10,000 Price Tag | Hacker News Reader

Internships Abroad: Unpaid, with a $10,000 Price Tag

nytimes.com

33 pointsiwh33 comments

A bit of a different perspective: as a CS undergrad in Silicon Valley, internships routinely pay upwards of $20k for a summer, complete with relocation -- simultaneously defraying costs of tuition and providing real work experience.

Far from being a mechanism to filter for the upper class, the interns I've worked with came from a diverse range of backgrounds, local, foreign, and all across the States. The tech industry might like to overstate the amount of meritocracy in its system, but at least in this regard internships seem to do well at providing more equal opportunities.

Yeah, but you have to be very, very good to get one of those internships. I'm a mid-top tier programmer (better than most of my cohort) from a modest state university. I've been applying everywhere, and there's no way in hell I'll make close to $20k. I'm pretty good at what I do, but there's a gulf between what you get if you're good and what you get if you really good.

Don't sell yourself short. I am a fairly average programmer coming from a state school, and I made 1800 a week plus housing last summer, and am going to be making 2000 a week plus housing this coming summer. If you are really a mid-top tier programmer opportunities like this and better will be available to you.

Where do you find these places? I've been blasting job apps since November. I think I've applied at like 15 places. No bites so far.

Check out realhq.com. If you are interested email Courtney@realhq.com.

I've worked one of these $20k SV internships, so I'd like to give my two cents. I worked for a large startup that hired around ~100 interns - not a Google or Microsoft by any means.

There is a relative meritocracy for these positions. All of my fellow interns were exceptional. But, this was not much of a meritocracy. All of the interns went to Ivy-caliber schools. Many of them went to expensive preparatory schools (and pointed it out). I find it hard to believe that any of these interns had financial constraints.

Does this mean SV isn't a meritocracy? No. But, there is a undeniable bias towards Ivy League schools where the students are predominately wealthy.

Like article says, unpaid internships, especially in expensive cities, is also a reliable way to select people from upper crust i.e. parents can bankroll their stay in high priced neighborhoods. Sometimes I wonder if that is what some firms and banks are doing.

In this case some are using student loans for it. Which is an interesting twist on things.

To be fair, paying for an internship might have higher returns than paying for classes. Although that doesn't mean an internship abroad is worth a whole lot more than an internship at home.

The world sure is changing when the most valuable resource on earth (labor from humans) has to pay to work, and when that is sold as a good idea and potentially better than credentialing.

I'm pretty sure the article was questioning the global optimality not the local optimality of the practice; it came across more as "hey, look at this stupid system" than "hey, look at this stupid guy."

Which isn't to say that the article has done convincing global analysis, just that I find handwaving about the "local optima serve as good proxies" assumption to be even less convincing that my gut feelings about the issue.

What is the incentive for employers to do this?

The same incentive as people of same status wanting to congregate together. It is a signal.

Like say someone wearing a $50K custom watch. It is a small detail but those that "know" will notice. Which is probably one of the main reasons it is worn to begin with.

If you're referring to investment banks, they pay roughly around what the upper ends of SV pays. I just signed a summer analyst internship that's prorated at 90k. I didn't hear of any firms that have structured summer analyst programs, with active campus recruitment, paying any less than 70k prorated to the term of the internship.

Congratulations! I signed with an investment bank as well, you working in Manhattan?

Thanks very much! Yes, I'm at one of the bulge brackets. I'm a pure maths student, not CS or finance, so the whole interview process has been really interesting.

Are you working in IB/S&T or software development?

S&T. I'm a pure maths student, not CS or finance, which is where an increasing number of the S&T pool is being drawn from.

Very cool. What group are you going to be working in? Also curious what your ideal career path would be. Are you planning on going to the buyside eventually? As somebody in a similar place, one concern is that while S&T used to be a feeder into HF pre 2008 it seems with the effective death of prop trading at banks nowadays this is a trickier path to navigate.

Not an irrational concern, although I'd say banks are still sussing out regulatory limits and workarounds. I'd be fine working at GS for many years into the future and see folks with similar backgrounds who have done that.

For me, it's less about money and more about the institutional leverage implicit in bulge bracket firms. I'm content when I can think about big, creative problems and if that translates into less money for me personally that's alright. A large problem, in my opinion, with S&T desks is the relatively recent adoption of the IBD mentality of moving up the invisible hierarchy by working at x for two years, y for one year, getting z graduate degree, etc.

You see something similar in congress in DC. A lot of internships there are unpaid too so most interns come from "good" families.

>...a junior majoring in history and French at the University of Michigan, had an eight-week internship at a bridal boutique in Paris arranged by Global Experiences. Ms. Friedberg said that the internship, which cost $10,000, was a great learning experience but the grunt work, like serving tea and coffee to customers, got repetitive, convincing her she did not want to work retail.

Do French majors really think their best post-grad option is to be a store clerk in a France?

It sounds like these students are getting degree credit for the work. My school had a strict policy against that sort of thing, but you doubtless get much better at French when you spend a lot of structured time in France.

I guess that's legit if the purpose is language immersion. The article made it sound like she was paying to find out how much she'd enjoy selling clothes.

That's just a scam.

Just a personal experience with an internship abroad.

I spent a semester on a combined internship / study abroad program in London (work 2 days, class 2 days). The cost of the program was about ~$15k including living space. While that may sound expensive, I was already paying ~$15k in tuition a semester as an out of state student at a state school. So studying abroad actually ended up being cheaper (with the included living space) than staying at my normal university. There were also several scholarships available to study abroad students to further reduce the cost.

Did something similar when I was an undergrad. It was arranged through my school. Worked out to be cheaper, and was a great experience -- probably the best of my undergrad years. Led to other opportunities that I never would have had, had I stayed in the U.S. that semester.

EDIT: Just looked at the cost for the current semester - it's about 30% less than regular tuition + room & board, although the semester abroad is 3 weeks shorter. Airfare is not factored in.

This should be criminal. Internships need to be paid positions. Period. Anything else is exploitation.

You are free to reject unpaid internships. You are also free to accept it. --> No coercion. --> No exploitation.

In contrast, a law against unpaid internships restricts free choice.

I'll tell you what: assuming you're employed, why not just give up your salary and work for nothing? That's free choice, after all, right?

Correct.

Excellent. So, please start working for nothing.

In most cases in the US, unpaid internships are illegal, unless they meet certain requirements of the Department of Labor[1]. It mostly boils down to a question of whether or not the employer is getting useful work out of the intern or not (though the rules are different for non-profits).

I would guess that most EU countries have similar labor laws, but maybe someone with better knowledge can chime in.

1. http://www.dol.gov/whd/regs/compliance/whdfs71.htm

I'm sure these "requirements" are tenuously followed at best. Why have someone around in your business who won't do any kind of useful work?

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