The false god of coffee | Hacker News Reader

The false god of coffee

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124 pointsalexandros99 comments

Caffeine is a mixed blessing. It is a stimulant, which helps you wake up. But your body compensates for the expectation of stimulation. Which means that a coffee drinker after coffee is about like a non-coffee drinker without coffee.

And this is why I gave up coffee. Nowadays I have absolutely no caffeine tolerance - so I can have a coke when out dancing and it keeps me going. Unlike ye olden days, when it had no effect whatsoever.

Try slamming a red bull next time you go dancing. Great legal high ;)

man I wish a red bull worked, I can drink 4 and the only thing I feel is my heart hurting (I don't drink Red Bull any more btw, that heart thing freaks me out)

Red bull is not the strongest energy drink at all. I need to chug 2 of the normal size cans in succession to feel anything at all. Monster and Rock Star are fantastic if you need to keep up physical work but I worry about their effect on my heart after reading about how bad they can be.

http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSSYD58461200808...

Here is a sortable table of caffeine amounts in products. The numbers are quite striking.

http://www.energyfiend.com/the-caffeine-database

For example (mg caff / oz):

Red Bull = 80 / 8.46

Rockstar = 160 / 16

Coca Cola = 35 / 12

Fixx Energy = 400 / .17

I haven't drank Red Bull in a few years so things may have changed.

I checked the amounts of caffeine and other "medicinal" ingredients myself when I was doing physical labour and drank them regularly.

Surprisingly drinking chocolate has a few mg of caffeine also.

So then all things being equal, you're better off with the coffee. You get to enjoy the delicious taste of coffee and yet be 'normal' like a non-coffee drinker afterwards :)

But all other things are not equal. When I drank coffee I had to constantly manage my addiction or I'd get headaches. Now that I have no addiction I get fewer headaches.

Well, my comment was aimed more at people who don't have an addiction to the stuff. I like the taste and the buzz. I can drink lots of it but during the times when I don't have access, it doesn't really bother me. (For example, I'd usually rather not have instant coffee if the real stuff isn't available.)

The comments on the post are mind-numbing. People need to learn to take things as they are.

unreal. You'd think it was comment section on youtube.

I love the tracking of productivity idea. It's interesting, I also frequently use coffee to 'concentrate', but a little differently than you. I'll have tea or sometimes coffee in the morning (one cup) and if I'm not sleep deprived, that's it. If I need to work or focus on a task in the afternoon, I'll get a large coffee, clear my area of all distractions, get comfortable and try and crank through for as long as it takes. This is sort of a different way than you use coffee.

For a while I went off coffee completely because it was causing mood swings and serious blood sugar problems. Green tea changed my life, and I frequently felt it was almost all upside as compared to coffee. I wonder why I got off that bandwagon?

The productivity tracking he's talking about sounds like the Pomodoro technique. Check here for more: http://www.pomodorotechnique.com/

The author stated (in the Comments section) he doesn't use it per se but he does indicate he borrows from it:

Re: Pomodoro technique

I don’t use the pomodoro technique as written, however I was tracking 60 minute periods and switched to 25 minutes after reading that this was the ‘best practice’ discovered by the pomodoro people.

How did you notice/know you were having serious blood sugar problems?

Eating binges and weird physical symptoms made me realize something was likely wrong, that started me into research about hypoglycemia, and tracking symptoms.

My old breakfasts: coffee, sometimes a sweet. Result: by noon, I thought I was starving, but it was really just extremely low blood sugar, sort of like a diabetic would feel after the insulin injection. Moody, Shaky hands, etc. Especially if I had sugar in the coffee or a second one at 10:30.

Result would be sugary lunch to spike bloodsugar back up, and similar problems at dinner.

Solution: More fiber at breakfast, less sweets, decaf coffee or green tea. Interestingly, I can now live through a breakfast like that with significantly better results, partly because I know how to get back on track, and perhaps because my bodies not in such a yo-yo type situation any more.

He probably checked by other means, but mood swings are a good hint.

Coffee stimulates brain activity across the board whereas ADD treatments such as Ritalin and Adderall target just the specific parts of the brain used in learning and for concentration.

So does juicing your entire brain increase concentration? My money is on no. It just gives a good energized feeling and the illusion of being more focused.

Drink coffee because you enjoy it not as a productivity hack.

"Ritalin and Adderall target just the specific parts of the brain used in learning and for concentration."

Ritalin (methylphenidate) boosts dopamine; Adderall (amphetamine and dextroamphetamin) ups the level of dopamine and norepinephrine. Caffeine effects levels of adenosine and dopamine.

There is nothing targeted about this, nor do the chemicals only work on select parts of the brain. Now, perhaps for certain practical effects, boosts in dopamine and norepinephrine are better than reducing adenosine and boosting adrenaline.

But brain chemistry is complex, and it's simplistic to think of any of these things as specifically targeted to parts of the brain used for specific tasks or behavior.

My understanding is that Adderall amplifies brain activity in whatever part of the brain you are using. Coffee just stimulates everything.

Of course that's a major simplification, but this is what I mean by "targetted".

At what point are you not using your entire brain?

I'm considering quitting coffee for another reason; my wife tells me it gives me a wicked case of bad breath.

Oh well, it was fun while it lasted.

It's one reason I don't drink coffee. I hate the smell of bad coffee breath, and if anyone near me has it I find it terribly distracting, and I cannot in good conscience drink coffee knowing that I may subject others to it.

Of the possible (related to this or something else I changed at the same time) benefits I may have incurred by cutting coffee back to twice a week (one cup, half caf, half-decaf Wednesdays and Sundays): breath not as bad, stopped grinding my teeth at night, my back is less sore/achy, better sleep/more rested, any caffeine has a more pronounced affect.

I do drink green tea on the other days, a caf green first and then decaf the rest of the day. If I stop entirely, then out comes the aspirin, so I obviously am still "addicted."

Try brushing your tongue.

Try mint flavored coffee?

Does that exist? Sorry, I can't always tell if things are jokes.

I dunno. I drink coffee because it good.

Home roast, decent grinder, and a press pot... Doesn't get much better...

While I do drink coffee for the caffeine (and experience withdrawal symptoms without it), a substantial motivation is that I simply enjoy the flavor of a properly made cup of coffee.

When I stopped drinking caffeinated coffee, I lost my taste for coffee, but developed a great interest in tea.

Caffeine addiction transference?

It's like methadone.

I quit coffee every once in a while and it usually takes a couple of days to return to normal functioning. The tea helps.

BTW there are some interesting coffee documentaries shown occasionally on the tube (available on Netflix too).

"a press pot"

Try a Chemex: http://www.chemexcoffeemaker.com/ . It's not as bitter.

An Aeropress is awesome, too. Cheap ($25), easy to clean, makes fantastic coffee.

I didn't see it mentioned in the thread, so here's coffee's HN equivalent:

http://coffeegeek.com/forums

Must be like the broccoli thing - some folks like it, some can't stand it. I can't stand coffee, and have absolutely no idea what people are talking about when they rave over its flavor.

Same. It's nice to have something warm and tasty to sip on in the morning after getting to work. Makes that first hour of the day more pleasant.

It's kinda strange though...I almost never drink coffee on the weekend. It never crosses my mind after I wake up on weekends. Where as in the morning, before work, I can't wait to get in and start drinking my coffee.

I've always found that tea, not coffee, has enabled me to concentrate more clearly on the task at hand..

Data?

http://www.amazing-green-tea.com/theanine-and-caffeine.html

Many people reach for a cup of coffee when they need to concentrate. People with flagging focus might, however, get more bang for their buck with a cup of tea.

A 2007 study conducted by Doctor Foxe found that theanine and caffeine synergise to boost the activity of brain neurons.

Thanks for this. I didn't have any data other than what I experienced.

With coffee I just feel energized but that energy isn't directed. With good tea (the loose leaf kind) I feel both energized and focused. I could never explain it but the article above might be the reason.

Bit of a waste of time. Caffeine is a stimulant, a real drug just like any other. A drug being legal does not make it less a drug. Caffeine tolerance is real and involves changes to brain chemistry : http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/113369008/abstrac... Coffee delivers high doses of caffeine, which works by stimulating adrenaline http://health.howstuffworks.com/caffeine-awake.htm production... so if you stay hooked on a stimulant for a long time, of course it has a negative effect on your performance.

I've been experimenting with coffee for a few years now, but I've never tried to quantify my results quite like the author did.

I've been everywhere from 1 cup a day to gross overconsumption. In the end, coffee doesn't seem to significantly impact my concentration. If I get 8 hours of sleep, don't drink any alcohol the day before, and stay hydrated, I can be productive no matter how much coffee I drink. Even more, I found that Morning Coffee makes me dehydrated and irritable, so I usually drink a cup or two after lunch to keep myself going. On occasion I've quit for 2 week intervals just to start from scratch, but quite frankly I'm addicted and never mind starting up again :)

The body adjusts to a large degree.. I could drink a coffee and easily fall asleep, when I was drinking 6 cups per day.

Quote: http://www.supermemo.com/articles/sleep.htm

As it has a profound effect on the central nervous system by blocking adenosine receptors, caffeine is widely used to tackle drowsiness. However, majority of people little realize that it works well in your struggle with the adenosine-related homeostatic component of sleepiness, while it is quite inefficient in overcoming circadian sleepiness! Moreover, used against the latter, it can actually be quite unhealthy!

If you abuse caffeine or use it at the time when your body clock tells you bedtime, you will only experience the symptoms that gave caffeine all that bad rap. These include: heart arrhythmia, irritability, overwhelming tiredness, depression, and a typical coffee abuser's "sickness in the stomach". No wonder the popular myth says that coffee is bad for health and can contribute to a heart disease.

Did that vacuum coffee pot look like some sort of weird drug setup to anyone else? I had never seen something like that.
I don't really drink coffee except maybe 1 cup after dinner once a month or something along those lines but I do drink black tea which probably still does have about as much caffeine as half a cup of normal coffee. However the times that I drink tea probably differ from the times that people drink coffee, rather than drinking it in the morning I usually drink one cup around 5 o-clock.

The vacuum pot ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_coffee_maker) appeals to the geek in us. The brew is supposed to be more "pure".
I think just like with smoking, coffee brewing is a ritual and people enjoy the ritual just as much as they enjoy the taste and the effects of coffee itself.
I like tea. Recently I have gotten to like this strange black tea called pu-erh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu-erh_tea). I you like black tea, give it a try it definetly has a unique flavor. Some people really like it, some really hate it.

I have tried that tea but it was way off my usual tastes, thanks though.
It is a very interesting kind of tea though.

Twining's loose-leaf Earl Grey (the square yellow can) is the perfect coffee replacement. With honey and milk, it pushes all the right buttons with minimal sugar/caffeine bounce.

A very nice earl grey (if you like stronger tasting teas) is earl grey bravo from adagio http://www.adagio.com/black/earl_grey_bravo.html

Oh my goodness that is so expensive.

Seriously? $7 for 4 oz. tea is really not bad. Even rather expensive high end green teas are much cheaper than (say) fine wines.

I bet most people don't drink two bottles of fine wine every day ;-)

Well, touche, but that much tea could last a while. A couple ounces of tea is like a couple cases (not bottles) of wine, several pounds of coffee beans, etc. I'm not sure exactly how long 4 oz. of tea would last (my wife and I rotate through a couple different teas), but probably several weeks.
Good tea is cheap, you typically just mail-order a good quantity at a time and keep it in an airtight tin. The samplers from Adagio are ~1 oz., and a great way to try out several for a few dollars each.

Correct, really good tea can be cheap. I am a fanatical tea drinker -- something like a gallon a day. And I find a 100 gm supply (3.5 oz) to go for about a month. At teaspring.com, that much of a geniunely good Taiwanese oolong (my favorite) costs about $20.
I don't know how much a month's supply of really good coffee costs for the fanatical drinker, but I know my monthly budget sure wouldn't get you far at Starbuck's . . .

And if you have a way to steam milk at home you can make London Fogs (earl grey, steamed milk, vanilla syrup).

Black tea contains about as much caffeine as Red Bull (per liter). Admittedly less than coffee, but hardly minimal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caffeine

Comparing caffeine content in tea vs coffee is a tricky argument to make. The caffeine content in tea varies on many factors, including oxidation level, steep time, and leaf agitation. On average, the amount of theine/caffeine in a cup of tea is much less than that of a cup of coffee.

Additionally, tea has other elements (l-theanine, for one) that seem to give it a different profile of side effects.
Drinking green tea gradually over the day (carrying around a thermos, perhaps) seems to give most of the benefits while minimizing side effects, provided you like tea. The worst aspects of coffee & caffeine come from having a whole bunch at once, then spiking and crashing.

Furthermore, the caffeine content in tea is quite easy to manage while making it.
A nice tea is good for three to seven brewings, depending the type and your brewing preferences. I understand that the amount of caffeine in the pot falls by roughly an order of magnitude with each brewing. Thus if you like the tea but are concerned about the caffeine, just throw the first pot away. Many folks think the second has the best flavor anyway . . .

If you just want to reduce the caffeine, steep it for just a few seconds before pouring out the first pot. The caffeine dissolves out almost immediately (it's very soluble in hot water), but you'll still have most of the tea's flavor.
Herbal teas are also worth a try. I like rooibos and roasted barley. Korean grocery stores often have big bags of the latter ("barley tea"), and it's great iced. (Roasted barley is also used to add flavor to some darker beers.)

Yes, it's less (about 1/3 to 1/2), but it's significantly more than cola. Don't switch to black tea if you want to kick your caffeine habit.
Here's another source:
http://www.stashtea.com/caffeine.htm

Recently took the plunge and went from 7 cups coffee plus 5 tea per day.. to around 1 coffee and 2 tea per day.
First few days were very surreal.. equivalent to slight hangover. Drinking lots of water seemed to help.
For me it was more some kind of subconscious routine habit that was too addictive, rather than the actual caffeine fix.
I think I enjoy coffee more now I drink less of it. More of a treat, and I make sure its a really good one, plunged or in an Italian pot (not instant).

When I was working in an office all day I was so bored out my skull I'd go and make a coffee for something to do that wasn't sitting at my desk. Result was drinking lots of coffee. I switched to drinking hot squash (ie fruit cordial mixed with hot water) and spiced teas without too much problem - few days of headaches.
I'm thinking I need to cut back again but at the moment it's the chocolate I'm craving, probably again for the caffeine but also for the sugar.

"Took the plunge"? More like waded to the shallow end. Its a common addict's behavior - rationalization. Don't get me wrong; I'm glad your drug intake is down to manageable levels where you can function . The only way I managed that is going cold turkey.

I thought coffee was an excuse for breaks. I drink when I'm bored or need a short break. I have never ever felt that a coffee can give me a kick not even when I had to drive for 2 days or learn for exams.
On the other hand if I find something really interesting and/or exciting it can keep me awake till morning and I can't wait to get it solved not needing any stimulant food or even going to the bathroom.

I know folks who have trouble giving up cigarettes in part because it's what they do on breaks and there is a social element to it. I used to spend time someplace where the entire staff seemed to smoke and smoking was about the only break activity available. If you tried to quit and went out front to chat with someone else on break, you could guarantee they were smoking. That made it hard for anyone to successfully quit.
So I can see that being a factor with coffee in the work place.

Thanks for posting; I've also been withdrawing from coffee, primarily because my tolerance has increased to the point where I no longer feel I'm getting significant beneficial effects from it. This article has me thinking about what the negative effects I may not have noticed are, and if I should extend my "tolerance-reset" period into something more permanent.

FWIW: I use caffeine to help cope with allergies and as an albuterol substitute because I am allergic to albuterol. I have noticed that some folks who consume a lot of coffee make remarks that sound a lot like they are self-medicating for some issue without consciously realizing it. This might be why the author of the blog keeps coming up with some excuse to go back on coffee. I find that addressing underlying health issues has cut my consumption of caffeine without me having to do anything to intentionally try to curtail caffeine specifically.

I'm surprised that nobody here has yet mentioned Yerba Matte.
I've never seen any studies or anything, just going on what I felt like my experience was, but it seems like all the benefits of coffee (altertness) with none of the bad side effects (jittery, crashing, etc.)

Yerba mate is really good. Unfortunately it's not commonly accessible. I wouldn't be surprised though, considering that Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay and Chile are the only countries where it's common.

Really? I live in Winnipeg, Canada, and it's pretty much everywhere here. There are bags of it in health stores, granolahead-oriented restaurants, and various other surprising places.

You can buy it at almost every "hippie" grocery store I've ever been to. (but the loose variety if you can get it).
Beyond that, you can order it from ma-tea.com (this is where I bought it up until a few yeras ago when it became popular enough to start appearing in grocery stores).

I quit caffeine cold-turkey around March, because I was drinking too much (effects of tolerance?) and feeling jittery throughout the day, as well as having trouble sleeping at night. Slight headaches subsided after a couple of days.
Now I don't necessarily feel like I have more energy overall, but it is a lot easier to get out of bed in the morning and I feel like my energy levels are a lot flatter and more balanced throughout the day.
Still love the taste of coffee though - decaf soy latte is part of my normal breakfast routine.

Here's what works for me: I used to have a donut/pastry and a 16oz (or larger) coffee in the morning. I'd feel good for an hour or so, but soon would feel jittery and spaced-out. Now, I have an 8-oz cup in the morning with a decent breakfast - but no more throughout the day. I drink my coffee slow, get a little caffeine boost, and feel energized all morning. Moderation.

Even if coffee's net effect is zero -- you're as stimulated with it as you are without it -- it can still be positive. Think of it as a way to dial up your adrenaline; instead of being excited at random times, or by external events, you're excited when you need to work, and calm when you want to relax.

I've made this same point a couple of times before on here: generally I think Caffeine is just a poor stimulant full stop and there are much more productive and "healthy" ones/methods that leave you feeling a lot better
Good to see some agreement/support on this :D

I rely on coffee to keep me awake in early morning class, but during quizzes the jittery feeling does impair my ability to focus. However, it's great when I'm pounding out circuit diagrams and equations for EE!

i like the data tracking and chart, but the conclusion is a little weak...maybe he's getting better at concentrating and coffee has nothing to do with it. (or rather, i suspect both are influences)

It seems he's aware of what his experiment does and does not say.
Causation or not, he's achieving more intervals without coffee.

For him at least, the data is proof enough. He thought he might have needed coffee to stay productive, and he found that he didn't.

Specifically, it's a good rebuttal to the nagging feeling that maybe giving in and drinking coffee would help him focus. The same approach might help with quitting smoking.

He is complaining about mood swings, not coffee. If that's the case, I'd concentrate of stopping having mood swings as opposed to stopping drinking coffee.
It's like avoiding women and sex due to mood swings, elevated heart rate and other "impractical" side effects they may cause.

If he liked coffee because of the taste or warmth, that would be useful, I agree. He apparently doesn't care about those, though, from what he says. Since he actually cares mostly about the caffeine, and since high levels of caffeine produce mood swings for him (and me), going off coffee would seem to be the solution he wants.
Personally, I'm willing to put up with the mood swings, since it's not so much really high and really low as really, really high and kinda low. :) But that's just me.

In a time long past, I found that coffee could take the place of a meal.
This probably doesn't actually work. But it still saved me the time of making a meal.

Coffee is, on the average, good for the health for most people. (But tea is an ok replacement.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_and_health#Benefits
Do make your coffee with paper filters. [Edit: If you don't want to read the reference... paper filters removes some chemicals which are bad for cholesterol levels.]

Pointing out the long-term benefits of something without acknowledging either the long-term or short-term(which aren't really short-term if you continue to use it in the long term, but simply take effect sooner) costs doesn't justify any conclusions about whether the benefits typically outweigh the risks.

Check the link... the disadvantages come directly after the benefits. My note on paper filters came from that.
Very, very few things in life are without both positive and negative effects.
But coffee is bad mainly for people with certain stomach problems or those who are too sensitive to caffeine -- blood pressure doesn't seem to increase from coffee use, claims later research. (This paragraph added since it seems you are not going to check a link if you life depended upon it! :-) )
Edit: Syntax etc in last paragraph

I did check the link, but I thought that you were only referencing the benefits. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

I would have reacted the same way if someone had claimed health benefits for e.g. Coca Cola. :-)
It just haven't reached the public conscious yet that coffee weirdly seems to be such a good lifestyle choice.

Strait coffee might be good for you. Starbucks style 800 calorie drinks use coffee is probably bad for you.

"A glass of wine a day is generally healthy. But what if you pour that daily glass into the sauce of a 5000 calorie dinner?!"
Then I realized your point -- in the US, lots of people think of 800 calorie drinks containing coffee as "drinking coffee"?
Well... there are certainly even weirder advertisement effects on my home culture. :-(

And if you're using paper filters you might as well get yourself an AeroPress. Great coffee with tiny paper filters.

The only time I drank coffee in the last 4 yrs has been after my wife had an apendectamy and I went from work, to hospital, to work no sleep.
Coffee gives me about 15-20 minutes high, then its a crash mid-work so need more coffee. I never concentrate better and if I'm sleepy I remain sleepy but hyper.
I wake up perfectly fine without it. It is the routine that wakes you up not the coffee.
Also it tastes like shit.

Coffee isn't a drug or something. I love the taste of it. But I have done my research and know of studies that have shown that coffee has adverse effects on cognitive capabilities. So I drink coffee during meetings in order to stay awake but never when I have something important to do that requires all my concentration.

"Coffee isn't a drug _or something_". lol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drugs
First picture caption: "Coffee is the most widely used psychotropic beverage in the world. In 1999 the average consumption of coffee was 3.5 cups per day per U.S. citizen."
Caffeine is a CNS stimulant\adenosine receptor antagonist. It increases wakefulness\helps focused thought but impairs memory. It's a stimulant drug, not a very good stimulant drug, but the most commonly used one with a large social presence.
Vastly superior safe legal stimulants imo: Rhodilia Rosea, L-Tyrosine, Cocoa, Galantamine, Spirulina
Others legal ones I know a lot of people swear by: Piracetam. (and relatives such as Oxiracetam, Aniracetam) Becoming decently common among college students.
Adderall is also EVERYWHERE you look in competitive colleges, but long term amphetamine use is a very bad idea in terms of burnout unless you are super human like Paul Erdos, and its a controlled substance.

Well, if wikipedia says so, it must be true.

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