Does Gentrification Cause a Reduction in Laundromats? | Hacker News Reader

Does Gentrification Cause a Reduction in Laundromats?

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34 pointsdodders33 comments

I'd be curious to see this replicated in other cities. I sort of suspect that there are cultural norms specific to New York at work here. For one, space is at a premium in a way that isn't really true elsewhere in the US, even in expensive neighborhoods, in a way that disincents owning your own washing machine.

Also, the wash and fold is a huge thing in New York, and lots of people use them. DC, where I live, probably has a few, but most people don't live near one, and I've never used one. For New Yorkers, by contrast, there's a different cultural expectation where paying someone to fold your clothes is much more accepted.

Those things together, I think, make laundromats in New York more likely to appeal to non-lower-class people there than elsewhere, and at least anecdotally, lots of laundromats here have closed as neighborhoods have gentrified, and at least a couple of now-affluent neighborhoods I can think of don't have any anymore.

"The only borough with a reasonable negative correlation between income and laundromat density is Staten Island with a moderate correlation of -0.44:"

Couldn't it be argued then, that population density acts like an agent against the depletion of infrastructure for the poor?

Well, sure.

And bodega's, pawn shops, Western Union and check cashing establishments...

Not sure about bodegas. Sure, they may remodel and start carrying more organic/natural/whatever food and the prices may go up, but the small corner store will always be around in nyc, regardless of neighborhood. Last year there was a bodega on my corner that looked like the quintessential new york bodega with the red & yellow signs with hand painted lettering. It closed, and was remodeled into a store that looks a little higher end, has brighter lights and more open windows, but it still serves the same purpose in the neighborhood.

Ah, yes, absolutely true... The bodega is a lot easier to retool into an 'Artisan Deli' than say a Laundromat changing over to be a high-end Dry Cleaner.

Even the affluent need laundromats.

I guess it would depend on the income level change that accompanies gentrification.

If incomes move from "low" to "middle", I don't think you'd see much of a change in laundromat density. In places like SF and NYC, if you don't have a W/D in your home, a "middle" income isn't going to give you enough cash to get one (most of the time it's a space constraint).

If incomes move from "low" to "high", then yes I could see an effect since if you have enough money, you can do the sometime-needed major renovations to add a laundry room to your home.

Mostly it's not a space constraint, especially in the outer boroughs where there's a bit more space. There are plenty of compact European models that well into small apartments, e.g. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5a/Washing_M.... But laundry machines are banned from most NYC buildings due to fears about overflows causing damage.

In NYC, its less of a space constraint and more of being against the rules of the landlord/co-op board because they say the building cannot support so much water usage and they are afraid of leakage into apartments below. Most of these arguments have been proven completely invalid, as washing machines nowadays don't use even close to the same amount of water they did 40 years ago, but they still uphold that silly rule.

I'd expect it to peak with the poor and the rich and dip in the middle. My personal experience (not in NY, though) says it might look like this:

The poor are taking a break on their rent to live somewhere without a washing machine, and therefore need a laundromat.

The middle class have access to in building washing machines, and do their own. Because they're still under some pressure money wise, there's the element of social pressure not to be "extravagant" and get it done for them.

The rich are more time pressured than money pressured, and take advantage of full service options for their laundry.

I was thinking along the same lines. I noticed this when I moved from San Francisco to Atlanta -- people in the middle in San Francisco don't have laundry in their apartments, but in Atlanta they do, because in Atlanta people rent larger places than they do in SF. So in Atlanta the laundromat density probably goes down when you move from "low" to "middle", but in SF when you go from "middle" to "high".

The plumbing systems in a lot of older buildings in NYC (including $3 million brownstones) can't handle washing machines.

This is a myth. There is no special plumbing required for a washing machine.

I have observed that the more money people have they either: 1) have their own washer/dryer and/or 2) have more expendable cash to have their clothes dry-cleaned. Also they tend to value their time vs. money enough to pay the premium vs. go to a laundrymat.

That's a good point. Several places do both.

Also, a lot of commercial places outsource their washing to laundries/laundromats (places that do both)

For kingsize duvets!

The affluent generally own their own washing machine.

Laundromats are a strange thing... only the USA.... all the other "lower and middle class people with limited floor space" in the world seem to have their own washing machines. Why is that?

My guess would be that the American washing machine market matured during the era when apartment living was seen as low-class, and thus the market concentrates on big machines for the big suburban houses that everyone who could afford a laundry machine lived in.

Likewise, the big American laundry machine risked overflow and drew a lot of water and power that a lot of old buildings couldn't handle, so landlords banned them. Nowadays, even though laundry machines have evolved so that there are models that use less water and power and overflow less, the housing situation in cities like NYC and SF is so competitive that landlords don't really need to adjust their policies to get the tenants they want. And our minimum wage is very low, so labor-intensive services like laundry are relatively cheap for middle class urbanites to outsource.

>My guess would be that the American washing machine market matured during the era when apartment living was seen as low-class, and thus the market concentrates on big machines for the big suburban houses that everyone who could afford a laundry machine lived in.

You can buy a washing machine in just about any size that you would need [1]. They offer stackable units to fit in small closets.

I visited friends in Europe before and they had to buy a dryer that you would empty the water manually because they didnt have a access to a dryer vent.

[1]http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Dryer5-5-6-6lbs-Compact-Apar...

> the housing situation in cities like NYC and SF is so competitive that landlords don't really need to adjust their policies to get the tenants they want

This bothers me to no end, I'm continually amazed that the standard of apartments in SF is so very, very crappy. You're charging several thousand dollars per month, yet the stove and the fridge and the in-apt washing machine is either 20 years old or the cheapest shit you can buy. And since the market is the way it is where most people don't care about these things, this is what you get. :-/

Rent control bears much of the blame for this. Landlords subject to rent control are discouraged from keeping their tenants happy with updated appliances, frequent maintenance, etc., because the only way they can re-price their units at market rent is if the current tenant vacates the unit. Poor upkeep, on the other hand, will encourage tenants to vacate.

Blame zoning laws that don't allow people to build up and add more space to the limited ground area. Ironically this makes people live further away from their work places in the city, increased traffic and pollution, the opposite of what the regulations are for.

Tradition I'd say. In scandinavia all apartment buildings have a shared laundry in the basement for used by tenants who can't squeeze in their own machine (And yes, UK people, having the washing machine in the kitchen is crazy).

"And yes, UK people, having the washing machine in the kitchen is crazy"

Yes, I agree this isn't great. The kitchen is a place to prepare food, not the place to handle laundry. However, most flats (and houses) in the UK don't have space in the bathroom for a washing machine. And most don't have dedicated utitility storage space; so the kitchen is the only place left. In an open-plan kitchen/living area, this is even less ideal. New build flats tend to have a utility cupboard for the washing maching (often in the hallway). But most blocks of flats don't have communal laundry facilities, and I suspect they wouldn't be particularly appealing to many flat dwellers. Even in a studio flat, I'd rather have my own washing machine.

One thing I have noticed about the US is that front-loading washing machines are very expensive. In the UK, the cheapest front-loading washing machines start from about £160 (approx $240 or €215) and then go up. At the £200 - £350 price range, there's a large number of models to choose from. What's keeping prices so high in the US?

The building-laundromat thing I think of as very Swedish (all the way down to having rules governing how machines are reserved). Maybe also Finnish? Not sure about Norway.

In any case, they aren't common in Denmark, though a few buildings have them. The basement is more often given over to bike parking and storage cages. In Copenhagen, coin laundromats are extremely common as a result. I go to one that's about 2 blocks away. It's getting more common for people to install an in-apartment washing machine if they remodel, though, and newly built buildings all come with the appropriate hookups installed.

In Sweden, a (free-for-tenants-to-use) shared laundry room (or in-apt laundry) has been legally mandated for all new apartment buildings since the 1940's, which is the reason there are no laundromats, and no coin-op laundry rooms either.

I think it fits with apartment living where washer/dryer is seen as a higher rent thing and having apartment buildings with crappy laundry rooms with too few machines.

I remember in college there was a chain (Duds -n- Suds?) that moved into town with really nice commercial equipment that server food while you did you laundry. I think they closed because they couldn't get an alcohol license. It was very clean, nice, and took a lot less time than the apartments laundry.

I often wonder about opening a coffee shop / laundromat with commercial washer / dryers. I think it might work.

I googled _coffee shop laundromat_ and quickly found an article on coffee shop/laundromats: http://money.cnn.com/2014/04/17/smallbusiness/laundromat-caf...

Cool article. I knew someone had done it (someone seems to have done everything). I agree about the crappy seating in most laundromats which is pretty stupid given you have to sit and wait.

Are they not reasonably common in the UK? They were a major plot point in Simon Pegg's movie The Fantastic Fear of Everything.

They are, but not as common as in the USA. They have them in France, too. I can't report on any other places!

In my experience it certainly does. And it's annoying as hell if you live in a place without a washer & dryer.

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