BMW I8: Reviewing the Car of Tomorrow | Hacker News Reader

BMW I8: Reviewing the Car of Tomorrow

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32 pointskelvinblade58 comments

"Car of Tomorrow." LOL.

It's less functional, spacious and performant than a much safer all-electric car you can buy today for less money. It has neither DC fast charging capability nor enough electric range to go anywhere reliably (22 EPA miles in ideal conditions). It has all the maintenance hassles and costs of a traditional ICE plus whatever they are for BMW's electric technology.

The i8 is an old-school gas guzzling supercar that happens to have a battery inside it.

It has a very small and efficient gasoline engine, so it is definitely not gas guzzling. BMW i8 offers somewhat agile acceleration, but relatively low all electric top speed of 120km/h (75 mph), so I would shudder calling this a supercar in anything except fuel economy and price.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_i8#Production_version

Note also that the i8's performance in all-electric mode is very weak: the electric motor is only 131hp, which is smaller than the i3's 170hp electric motor.

It's hard to imagine a significant fraction of i8 buyers using it as an all-electric commuter, like the Chevy Volt or other plug-in hybrids are used.

(edit: added some numbers)

With these parameters? It's not a commuter. It's rather a killer for electric vehicles, with the capability to go over 100 mpg. Think how far it could go with 50 liter tank - you'd have to fully charge your Tesla 5-6 times to cover same distance and spend a week just staring at the battery level indicator slowly going up. And it doesn't have any of electric vehicle pains - idle battery drain, 'vampire load' problems, performance decrease in cold or hot weather, and completely running out of fuel doesn't cost you 40k battery replacement. Electric vehicles are good only for commute and they take your freedom instead of giving it.

"It has all the maintenance hassles and costs of a traditional ICE plus whatever they are for BMW's electric technology."

Exactly. I was so, so disappointed that the i8 was a hybrid, and not an electric car.

Both the exterior/interior are far better designed and interesting than anything I've seen outside of a concept car. They also use premium materials that definitely makes the Tesla look cheap and tacky.

And I would hardly call a 1.5L engine a gas guzzler.

well, at least it's a car, not an ipad with wheels ;)

and probably, with todays fuel prices and 80 mpg runs cheaper than all-electric

Anyone else think deliberately pumping noise into the car is mindbogglingly stupid?

Especially considering that I'd wager the majority of the noise the car produces is artificial. Since cars are more efficient these days, it has become commonplace for manufactures to add artificial engine sound. Buyers want cars that sound like classic muscle cars but have modern efficiency. It would be fun hack the sound the car produces to make it sound something like this Domino's pizza scooter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n17B_uFF4cA

Most manufacturers do it. Consumer perceptions of power, performance and prestige are strongly influenced by engine noise. Modern turbocharged engines are much more efficient, but substantially quieter than naturally aspirated engines. A turbocharged I4 can produce just as much power as a naturally aspirated V8, but it doesn't sound as powerful.

Engine noise masks other mechanical noise from the suspension, brakes and gearbox; Those noises are often unsettling, giving a perception of poor build quality or mechanical defects. Artificial noise can mask those sounds, without the greater cost and weight of acoustic insulation.

I don't like the idea, but the marketing logic is perfectly sound.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/americas-best...

> A turbocharged I4 can produce just as much power as a naturally aspirated V8, but it doesn't sound as powerful.

Well, yes, you can make a 400HP 4 cyl turbo, but you wont have the same response as an NA v8. It's going to take some time to spool the turbo, and you wont have on call power. The torque curve will also look insane. Engines that perform like this don't last very long.

It is stupid, but that hasn't stopped a lot of manufacturers from doing it. I unplugged the one that came equipped in my GTI. Google soundaktor and your make/model to see if your car has one.

Hey, if it makes people feel better when their 3-cylinder hybrid sounds like a turbocharged V10, whatever.

Is there a business opportunity in hooking one of those cheap bluetooth OBD-II interfaces to a sample-driven synthesizer on a phone, hooked back into the car's sound system? Then you can make your sensible Civic sound like a Ferrari or a Bugatti... or an F14.

Some electric vehicles are very silent. I've seen a girl almost get run over by a quiet one - she was listening to music on her phone, so not sure anything short of the F-14 sound a sibling comment mentioned would have raised her awareness :P

To be clear, this isn't a safety feature. The noise is being piped into the cabin of the car, not out to people in the environment around the car. It's to make the driver hear a satisfying growl when you stamp down on the accelerator.

Thanks, I thought it was sent to the exterior, I read "All I can hear is a slight whine from the hybrid electric powerplant ready to be abused" and when I read the above comment I thought they were piping it to the exterior, like in this article:

http://www.psfk.com/2014/04/electric-car-fake-noise-safety.h...

"The European Parliament has just ruled that electric vehicles and hybrid cars have to be fitted with fake engine sounds so that people will hear them coming. The mandate aims to make streets safer for everyone, especially the blind and visually-impaired."

The tire noise of electric cars makes them sufficiently audible above a relatively low speed. Also note that conventional cars which are coasting are much quieter than conventional cars that are accelerating. As an electric car driver, I quickly figured out when I need to be very careful around pedestrians -- a bit more often than in a conventional car, but not that different.

The best part is after checking some guides for disabling this ridiculous feature, it appears that for some brands of cars a minor side effect is that you also disable the car's audio system. :)

Better than annoying everyone else within earshot.

  > 0-60 in 4.4 seconds

Why didn't BMW go full electric? The Tesla Model S P85D can do 0-60 in 3.2 seconds, costs less, and can carry a whole family. It isn't quite as sexy, but it's close.

because they technology isn't ready.

I am forever amazed that people think an eighty thousand dollar plus car that barely does more than two hundred miles per charge is some kind of breakthrough.

Its more of a marketing masterpiece than much else. If there were a sustainable market for these cars the big guys would have been all over it. Color me impressed if he delivers that 3 before 2018. Can't even get the X out on time and its just a lumpy S.

What makes the i8 interesting is that it looks futuristic and its use of carbon fiber. However the i3 is likely the better candidate as its use at the price point it has is more of the story than the fact it has a battery

> I am forever amazed that people think an eighty thousand dollar plus car that barely does more than two hundred miles per charge is some kind of breakthrough.

It's a no-compromise, all-electric luxury car which absolutely replaces an ICE car for every day use. It's priced similarly to other large, luxury, performance vehicles. It's mass-market and sold in many countries. You can, today, buy this. I don't understand how you can pass this off as not a breakthrough.

The point is that it can't replace an ICE for most of the world. Every country is not like the US with a giant supercharger network. So range is critical.

And Tesla isn't sold in "many" countries. It's an insignificant fraction of a typical car manufacturer.

My daily commute is under 10 miles round-trip. With errands, I occasionally do 20-30 miles. If I had an electric and needed to go on a longer trip, I could either borrow my wife's car or rent an ICE vehicle. I take road trips longer than 200 miles very rarely.

Yes, I realize that some people do have longer commutes than me. But very few people commute more than 200 miles per day.

Of course, this does limit all-electric vehicles to those that can afford a second vehicle or a rental when the need arises. But I don't think anyone is arguing that electric vehicles have reached the point of being affordable to anyone but the well-off.

Electric cars are definitely affordable. But your situation just exemplified the problem. A lot of people don't have a wife or they would be using their car and the hassle/cost of renting an ICE vehicle is pretty prohibitive.

Why would I buy an electric car when I can just a "normal" one that has no downsides ? That's the question hybrids can have an answer to that pure electric can't.

The length of the commute is not a problem. While charging from a regular 230V outlet(standard here in EU) you only add 8 miles of range per every hour of charging. If I had it I would not be able to recharge during the night what I drove out during the day. Unless I installed a more powerful charger....which I can't fit where I live. That's my problem with that car.

Let's say that you park at home 10 hours a day every day, and 10 extra hours over the weekend. That means you can drive 80 miles per day and 8*80=640 miles per week with no problems. The fraction of drivers who drive more than this is pretty small.

I can easily imagine that a few drivers drive more than this. Why do you think that's important for the overall success of electric cars?

Because if I can only recharge 80 miles of range every night then the effective range I can cover daily is 80 miles,not 250 miles you can do on a full battery. And please, even if my work commute is only 50 miles(25 each way) then it's very common that by driving to the shops or the gym in the afternoon I will make more than 80,even if my work commute is not that long. And yeah, vast majority of people will have a work commute shorter than 80 miles,but most people drive to other places than work too. It becomes pretty ridiculous if I had to say to my girlfriend "sorry honey, we won't be able to go and see your mother in the afternoon,because the car won't recharge enough overnight for me to go to work tomorrow". It's a major problem - they absolutely have to charge faster to be usable, I have no other complaints about electric cars other than this.

If you personally drive close to 80 miles/day on average, you're driving twice what the average driver drives. Work it out for someone who averages only 40 miles a day. It's not interesting that a small number of drivers drive a lot!

BTW there are fast chargers, check out CHAdeMO and the Tesla Supercharger.

>>BTW there are fast chargers, check out CHAdeMO and the Tesla Supercharger.

I know, but like I've said: >>Unless I installed a more powerful charger....which I can't fit where I live.

I've been attempting to talk about the general case, not your personal situation. It's not interesting or a surprise that electric cars are not for everyone.

The US does not have a giant supercharger network. Only some parts of it do.

Living in a major city in the Southwest, I see Tesla sedans frequently, a little bit more often than Maserati sedans, but not nearly as often as large S-Class or G-Class MB vehicles. Before they went bust, I did see two Fisker Karmas around town. To me, the Tesla is fundamentally a status symbol that happens to be usable.

I think Tesla exists in a very odd bubble within Government and Market forces. Taking a $400 Million + loan, then replacing it with investor money, and still angling to get Federal & State tax credits to make it priced "competitvely" to other luxury sedans doesn't seem like the technology is really the innovation. It's an impressive bit of engineering, sure, but the past and present indicate it's not truly priced similarly, it's subsidized to incentivize buyers.

> It's a no-compromise

What do you mean no compromise? It's a big sedan which can only serve as commuting car.

> which absolutely replaces an ICE car for every day use

It replaces an ICE car half the size and a fraction of the price.

> It's priced similarly to other large, luxury, performance vehicles.

Which have multiple times the autonomy and can actually eat road, the original purpose of large sedans.

Eat road?

Definitely in agreement with you, re: Tesla and what true automotive innovation should be like now and in the future.

I've kept my eye on Local Motors for quite a while, and finally decided to participate in a challenge that might be of interest to you as well...the LITECAR Challenge. Looks to be about 80 entries so far, some more viable than others, as it's an international / un-vetted forum with general guiding principles and cash prizes.

Link: https://localmotors.com/arpa-e/litecar-challenge/

Currently we have an efficient, large-scale recycling effort to reclaim materials from cars. We are only beginning to recycle carbon-fiber, but it seems likely that it will not be as easy or practical to scale.

I don't think they are emotionally or technologically ready for that leap yet. I think they will be able to make it and they better, but I don't think Germany as a whole is really ready to deal with what that means.

I don't even think that many Americans have fully grasped what electric vehicles mean. It essentially means, at the very least, a seriously diminished car culture. There is no tuning and tweaking and fixing in electric vehicles. You get an OTA update like announced today, or you swap out one of the few modular components and be done with it.

It has nothing do with culture.

People are always looking to tweak and tune and they will continue to do so in electric cars. You can guarantee that just like we can jailbreak supposedly secure iPhones people will get around software update security.

Because a Tesla is basically an electric car for the rich and famous and for SF tech workers. Where do you charge it at home if you happen to live in an apartment complex or high rise or have to park your car in a city lot?

If you own a house in the Bay Area with a garage and happen to work at hip tech company with charging stations et al, you can charge it at home and at work. That doesn't quite comprise how most of the world lives.

So, you're reasoning that BMW can't make a high-end electric car, which is going to be purchased by the rich and famous, because only the rich and famous can charge electric cars?

BMW already makes an electric car, the i3, for people who are less rich.

Probably because BMW sells in most countries. Tesla doesn't.

As such you have to take into account that electric infrastructure simply isn't available for most purchasers. And the argument of just use work/home doesn't apply. Many people park in work garages and live in apartments.

I seem to remember BMW having invested in hydrogen technology; maybe that's been canned now, but perhaps they're not ready to commit fully to another unproven post-gasoline power source.

I honestly do not understand why people get excited about hydrogen as power source. It escapes out of any container you put it in - a regular hydrogen tank will lose all of its contents within 3-4 weeks. A 70kg lead bottle only holds 1kg of Hydrogen. The power density is an order of magnitude lower than that of petrol,so a car using it as fuel will use hundreds of liters to get anywhere. And most importantly - there is literally zero of it in pure form here on Earth. It needs to be extracted first and then cooled down into liquid which costs a lot of energy. These are all problems that don't really have good solutions.

It surprises me to.

I guess it's mainly oil companies that get's excited about hydrogen, because it can be produced from hydrocarbons (and serves as a chimera, to extend petrol's life): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production

More convincing than the Model S.* At least for me:

I have been playing around with buying a Tesla S for a while. Maybe from day one of them being available. But then the feature set of the Model X got released. And I was disappointed. About Tesla and about me.

Driving rentals in the luxury car segment for the last 3 years installed a pretty stubborn view of what features I think are worth their money.

The Model X features were praised especially by my peer group (like hacker news readers) and indeed, a lot of those features are worth their money. The problem is, those features are pretty standard in those rentals I was driving.

I got disappointed because I fell prey to the techie-bias, that completely ignores the fact that the Tesla S lacks features which are standard in cars half the price. Again, this car is starting at 70k $. Take a 3 Series BMW Sedan, customize it until it costs the same - besides the Model S's acceleration and low-to-no-noise there is absolutely nothing were the BMW is not superior or at least on pair.

Which got me thinking about everything Tesla does get right: A Jobs-like persona as part of their marketing and a history of taking bold risks is creating a brand that enables them to take a midsize-quality car and sell it as a luxury one.

* Realizing how biased I was towards reality made me remember how personal we deem the decision of buying which car. I think the fact, that a lot of the first comments made here tried to dismantle the i8 as a weak attack on the Model S just proves my point :-)

Reviewing the car of tomorrow... 2 months late.

Here are some great reviews of the i8:

* /DRIVE (Chris Harris): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5I6xuhNgVg

* Car Buyer (lovely channel): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjB3tDIhl6g

* Car Throttle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GkUQY1Hxnu0

* Evo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZ54QP8VSvw

* The Verge: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ea8_CNdJ54

My personal take, as a self-proclaimed car connoisseur, and BMW fanboi? It's my favourite car, but if I had €100k+ to spare I wouldn't buy one now, due to the iPhone effect. I'm 99% sure the next version will be way more polished. Not saying it's not an amazing car at the moment, but if there are plenty of minor quirks that will most likely go away in subsequent versions once customers complain.

The embedded 911 in the rear cannot be unseen.

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/2fhjte/this_is_a_bmw_i...

Why would you buy a car that you can't get out of in a car park? I've seen one driving around here in UK - and British car parks are notoriously small - if you park alongside another car I guarantee you won't be able to get out without crawling out of it.

Because if you're buying this car you can afford to valet it.

I'm sorry,but this is such a nonsense argument. This car is "just" slightly below 100k pounds. That's not Rolls-Royce or McLaren territory. That's the same price as Range Rover Vogue, Mercedes S-Klasse or Audi A8, of which there are thousands of(at least here in UK), most driven not by chauffeurs with their own valets,but with people who actually bought them(or their spouses). The difference is that there is absolutely no problem with driving that Range Rover to the shops. Or to the gym. Or to work. You can park it anywhere and get out of it easily. But meanwhile, doors on that BMW? It's not about price - it's just stupid and impractical, plain and simple. And I would expect more than this German company.

How is the valet going to park it and get out of it?

This struck me as hilariously outdated. Tesla puts this car to shame.

Yeah, I've never understood the raving about the i8. I get that it's one of the first major performance efforts of a major car manufacturer, but it really isn't that great when you compare it to a Tesla.

Compare it to the P85D; you get 23 miles of electric vs 253, you get 0-60 in 4.4s vs 3.1, you're still dependent on gas, plus it costs a heck of a lot more to buy +~$30,000. Although the total range is 330mi for the BMW, it's still not exactly mind blowingly better than the Tesla.

If I was buying electric, I'd personally want to go all in.

The only thing going for it is that it actually looks like a cool sports car where the Tesla does not.

EDIT: Note that the one thing this article does not do, is compare it to a Tesla. I think the BMW marketing people must be avoiding that comparison ;)

That's the funniest thing about the article. It completely avoids the all-electric 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Tesla is simply not available in most EU countries, while that i8 is. That alone makes it more interesting in some respects.

i8 looks great.

That's about it.

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