WhatSim, a SIM Card for WhatsApp | Hacker News Reader

WhatSim, a SIM Card for WhatsApp

whatsim.com

83 pointszukunftsalick79 comments

I absolutely despise the weasel words that this site uses. It is full of outright lies and contradictions. Most misleadingly:

All Sims make you chat. But this one for free and without limits.

It's not free, it costs €10 for a year. Why then do they also claim 'it never expires' ? Why do they say that it has no limits, when the Rates page is full of limits?

I despise such deliberately misleading text. These people are behaving appallingly. Put up a simple page explaining the costs please (even the Rates page talks in terms of 'credits' and can't bring itself to talk about actual money except in the small print).

The website leaves me with the impression that this company is out to con me.

Yup way too many mentions of "free, without limits", considering:

€10 per year but they say "no expiry".

€.25 per photo (sent or received, I think)

€.50 per video

That's just for Zone 1. More than triple those prices if you're in Australia or any Zone 2 country.. and more than 6 times those prices if you're in Canada or any Zone 3 country.

I've dealt with a small amount of MVNO negotiations and this company has put many red flags up in my mind.

It may be obvious to someone else, but I'd like to know how they detect a photo or video being sent, rather than text? WhatsApp is end-to-end encrypted, so they can't be proxying the data to the servers. Are they just guessing from the total data transfer seen from the subscriber?

There's a lot of unanswered questions. The CEO appears to have a fairly poor track record of running this kind of freemium global-SIM project, too, having done some digging. I'll watch with interest.

Well, it's trivial for the app to simply add a flag that there is a photo or video in the encrypted content. End to end encryption doesn't mean the app doesn't know what you're sending, it means the company can't decrypt the contents.

But that does not explain how the WhatSim guys can detect multimedia content and charge accordingly. They can't decrypt the traffic and can't modify the app itself.

I think (it's been a while since I looked at this) the multimedia traffic goes to a different set of whatsapp servers.

If the APP itself taks care of monitoring when pix and videos are sent, then the SIM doesn't have to. And since the SIM is only for use with the app, your problem is taken care of.

The SIM and the app are different companies, that's not going to happen. WhatsApp will never associate themselves with WhatSim.

Ah, I was unaware of that, thanks.

Metadata doesn't get encrypted.

That question is, at least, fairly easy to answer.

That's good to know. I assume most mobile operators sniff this traffic already, but it does feel a bit strange knowing up-front that they're going to be closely monitoring that kind of thing. Maybe I'm paranoid!

Differentiating pictures and videos from chat traffic is likely an easy traffic analysis problem, unless WhatsApp are using deliberate countermeasures.

How long before someone starts tunneling IP over WhatsApp messages?

https://github.com/matiasinsaurralde/facebook-tunnel

Just to spare someone else from googling it:

MVNO = Mobile Virtual Network Operator.

> but I'd like to know how they detect a photo or video being sent

the app could count photo and images send and supply that data through a different channel.

They say: "You can chat with WhatsApp anywhere in the world absolutely free of charge"

Okay they do say chat, but for users chat means much more than just text chat. But... its not free of charge, indeed its 10$ a year. and the 5$ for 10 vids or 20 pics is rediculous.

I thought these rates were for legacy Multimedia Messages, not for Whatsapp traffic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multimedia_Messaging_Service

Edit: apparently not. The FAQ page states the SIM works only for Whatsapp, not for texts.

It really feels to me that they're providing a mobile front end to whatsapp, not free connection to whatsapp. I guess it would route messages as texts and MMS.

They aren't even weasel words. It's just outright lies.

Realistically, this is just par for the Telecom Space. I've put together a nice collage that is ready to print to brochure. It could easily be an AT&T/Verizon/Comcast/Dish/DirectTV/TimeWarner newspaper insert.

http://i.imgur.com/QkW6E6C.png

I enjoyed the About Us page.

`WhatSim is the stroke of genius of Manuel Zanella, founder and CEO of Zeromobile.`

With just €10 you can chat for free and without limits anywhere in the world for a year. And you can do it for always for just €10 a year. WhatSim has neither fixed costs nor monthly payments and it never expires.

To be able to send photos, videos, and voice messages and to share your location and contacts, all you need to do is buy a recharge. With a €5 recharge you receive 1,000 credits that allow you to exchange 50 photos, 10 videos or 200 voice messages in most countries. Plus sharing your position and contacts is unlimited.

Wow, so many contradictions!

There are no monthly payments, but it's €10/year.

It never expires, but you have to renew it every year.

You can chat for free and without limits, but multimedia messages cost extra.

To share our contacts and location you must buy a "recharge", but sharing your position and contacts is unlimited.

I don't trust this service one bit, I suspect it will be full of sneaky charges and misleading smallprint.

Can I use other applications besides WhatsApp? No, WhatSim works only with WhatsApp.

If this is the trend, then those quad-sim crappy phones I got from China will finally be useful! One for WhatsApp, one for netflix, one for phone, one for internet.

Honestly I don't know who will ever use this..

Also, when I first read the title, I thought: cool, they implemented the WhatsApp protocol on a sim card, so feature phones can chat on WhatsApp! How disappointed I am.

My cell provider in Brazil just switched from limiting my bandwidth to cutting it when I exceed my daily quota (yeah 10mb).

The Moto G is an affordable, 5", dual-sim phone that sells for 200 USD here, no contract. That's 1/8 of an iPhone 6+ (here).

This could sell like crazy in my country (even more if one could also use Waze - make it the w-sim).

I could see myself buying this if for no other reason than emergencies or that time right after I land in a foreign country and haven't yet pantomimed my way through buying a SIM card in a foreign language. It would be useful to have for those periods and nice to keep around just in case since it's so cheap.

Or even layovers in foreign countries where I want to leave the airport for a few hours and not buy a SIM.

I'm with you on this. I'm currently travelling around Europe. I'd rather a one sim solution to keep my family and friends up to date rather than the three prepaids I have on me.

That being said I'd like it if the website was a bit more straight forward and ,if they feel like it, maybe some ssl on the Buy page.

The EU is currently working on abolishing roaming costs within the EU, which seems like a far more favorable solution.

A much better alternative would be: http://www.knowroaming.com/

- It's a SIM Sticker that sticks onto your existing SIM - When you roam, it activates, and uses its networks (but you can disable it, as you wish) - Calls, SMS etc are available at very decent rates. - Data is available at very reasonable rates (10c - 25c per MB - this is amazing for roaming) - Coverage is very, very good. I worked my way through Turkey, Iran, Iraq, the stans, Asia, Australia, South America, Russia.. all with coverage.

Highly recommended, and not some dodgy service.

That sounds really interesting but how does it work? From the website I cant see how it switches off my SIM and goes to their network. I would be worried I end up with massive bill shock...and would I keep my number or need a new one?

If it works as promised that's a great product so the marketing profession in me is disappointed with the website.

Is this legitimate? They do not even use SSL in the purchase page http://www.whatsim.com/en/buy-now.

At first i felt the same, but after i fill the form and continue, it will redirect to payment gateway page, which is using HTTPS.

Seems like it is legit. The payment gateway page shows that payment goes to ZeroMobile.it. Yeah.. i think they need a better flow.

but how can I know that this payment gateway is legitimately going to go towards WhatSim's account? Going from HTTP to HTTPS basically makes anything about this a crapshoot

I think you can't ever be sure of that. The data exchange usually is like this

1) Customer browser on seller site: the customer clicks on Pay

2) Seller server to payment gateway (hopefully over an encrypted channel): I'm S (important) and somebody is about the come to you to buy Y with order number Z. In case of success please redirect to U1, in case of failure redirect to U2.

3) Payment gateway to seller server: ok, thanks, my transaction code for this is T

4) Seller server to browser: redirect to the payment gateway (the browser has been waiting since step 1) for order Z (you don't mind if somebody pays for you)

5) Customer on payment gateway (https): check that S and Y are what is expected (this is fundamental), type in credit card data, click Pay.

6) Payment gateway to seller server (on a safe channel): transaction T has been paid for.

7) Payment gateway to customer browser: redirect to U1

8) Customer browser on seller server: page U1 says thank you for paying, goods are being delivered.

What makes you sure that the payment gateway is not a rogue one and will pay your seller? It's that you can see the order's data in step 5. However you can't be sure that the seller site has not been MITMed and you've been redirected to the wrong payment gateway. The only safeguard for that is the authentication and encryption in step 2, but that's not under your control. Https between the customer and the seller site doesn't make the transaction any safer.

On the other side, what makes the seller site safe against scammy customers is step 6, but I saw some eshops relying only on the information sent in step 7, which in some cases could be forged by the client.

On the other hand, this is a nice piece of evidence (along with Kindle 3G) that it is actually possible to negotiate reasonable deals with mobile operators globally.

They probably use Jasper Wireless (just like Kindle 3G)

FOR FREE, FOREVER, WITHOUT LIMITS (10€ yearly for text only, additional 5€ for 50 photos). Die.

Why would a chat-service operated over the internet require a dedicated SIM of its own?

This just reeks of bad design and the limitations of tying the chat-protocol user-ID to a phone-number.

Until I can log on (anywhere) using a username or email, I'm not going to consider whatsapp a messaging-service for the internet-age.

> Why would a chat-service operated over the internet require a dedicated SIM of its own?

It doesn't. This is a way to get flat-rate global pricing for texting.

I can see the practical value of this, but the net neutrality side worries me. Will this lead to specific SIM cards for Facebook, Google, Amazon, etc? On the other hand, this is a nice piece of evidence (along with Kindle 3G) that it is actually possible to negotiate reasonable deals with mobile operators globally. Hopefully someone soon does just that to give us a SIM card that allows for reasonably priced open mobile Internet. In Europe, I'm hoping the new EU regulation soon allows me to use all of the Internet with a reasonable price internationally.

I understand what this is but I'm having a hard time understanding how it works.

I understand that it is a sim that permits data-only connectivity for a large number of networks around the world. What I'm having difficulty with is understanding how the sim limits the user to using only whatsapp. Does the sim analyse network traffic content or endpoint to block non-whatsapp data? Is the whatsapp software supplied on the sim as an STK application that has sole access to the data channel? Something else?

What am I missing?

Presumably the SIM does nothing special, it just directs the data connection to an APN run by the operator (like all SIMs do). This operator has firewall rules that drop everything non-whatsapp.

I guess they run as MVNO[1] and all data is routed through their APN. The rest goes as another comment has already described.

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mobile_virtual_network_operator

I seriously doubt this. They would need to sign MVNO agreements with every single operator they support. Unless they have a deal with someone that already has the links to the operators.

Wow, what a terribly misleading written FAQ:

Does WhatSim work on all phones?

Yes, it works on all unlocked phones.

That question should be answered with a NO then. It doesn't work on all phones.

to be honest, basically every sentence on the website seems like a lie.

I was going to say the copy was glib going-on misleading. But then I read the about page[0], and my mind was changed.

<block>WhatSim is the stroke of genius of Manuel Zanella, founder and CEO of Zeromobile. In 2003, after his honeymoon in Kenya where he spent a fortune in phone calls, Manuel Zanella had the idea of creating a SIM card to reduce the cost of international roaming. In 2007 he created Zeromobile, the mobile company for low cost roaming that allows you to save up to 85% on the cost of incoming and outgoing calls, text messages and mobile Internet. And you can receive free in over 140 countries. Now with this new idea, WhatSim, he has created a revolutionary SIM card to chat for free with WhatsApp, the world's most popular messaging system.</block>

[0] http://www.whatsim.com/en/about-us

I don't agree. There's a lot wrong with the marketing copy of the website but I think that statement is quite clear.

For most countries where SIMs are commonly in use (i.e. not the US where CDMA is still a thing and not all consumers are comfortable with GSM), people generally understand that to change SIM you need an unlocked phone. I think the question is intended to answer whether you need a phone on a specific GSM or UMTS band, which you don't.

Can it get even more retarded?

Will I have to switch between a dozen SIM cards in a few years when I want to send an iMessage, a Facebook message, upload an Instagram photo, conduct a Google Hangout session. Oh hell no.

Just give me a 4G enabled SIM card, a reasonable data limit (ie. 5GB) for an affordable price. I'll figure out by myself what I will use this mobile broad band connection for, thanks.

Even better would be if dual-SIM was supported by Big Brand phones like iPhone and Samsung.

I'd get an unlimited voice and unlimited data SIM and that would be the end of it.

Anywhere in the world but not Macau?

http://www.whatsim.com/en/coverage

Nor in The Bahamas, Brunei, Burkina Faso, Burma, Burundi, Cameroon, Central African Republic, Comoros, Cote d'Ivoire, ... (that's just the letters 'B' and 'C' - I gave up after that!)

Not a big surprise - 600k population and a slow incumbent monopoly telecom provider means hard work to support for not much reward.

Rates - http://www.whatsim.com/en/rates

So it takes sending/receiving 50 photos in the cheapest zone (5 in the most expensive one) to empty 5€ worth of credits. Isn't it a bit expensive? Then maybe this is targeted for the frequent travelers.

So who will build the "Internet via WhatsApp Text messages" app? Should work, right?

ICYMI this is a product developed by an Italian guy who created a sort of smartwatch years ago (I'm Watch was called) which turned out to be quite a failure. This idea seems to be as good as the other one!

A friend of mine is getting one, as she doesn't want to get roaming charges during her vacation, but still wants to talk to people on WhatsApp. Seems to solve this problem quite well. :)

Assuming you're in the US, has your friend considered T-Mobile's Simple Choice plans? Text and (throttled) data roaming is free in dozens of countries, and voice is only 20c/min. Skype and FaceTime Audio is perfectly fine on the throttled data, too.

Sorry, EU. Hopefully this happens though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_roaming_regulati...

She could get a 3 SIM if she's from the UK? "Feel at home" countries have the same freedom as being in the UK, so the £15 PAYG SIM (which you can stop using after a month) gives you 25GB data, unlimited texts and a large number of calls, even if you're in various countries in Europe, and even better, America. I will be looking to use one when I visit America later in the year.

I've used Feel At Home quite extensively (more when it was still called 3 At Home) and it's fantastic. The two countries I visit most often, USA and Spain, have recently been added to the list. I'll be able to get rid of my international SIMs and cut out the logistics of having to swap then while travelling. Free data roaming is just about the best thing a network can offer customers who travel.

Glad to hear it works well, as I am currently with TMobile and was horrified by the prices for going to the USA. I may even switch to 3 for my "daily driver" phone.

That sounds very good (sadly she isn't from the UK), and seems like a good deal until the roaming regulations change.

Check their rates carefully, in many EU countries pre-paid SIM card would be cheaper.

So you need to use a different phone number than the one you usually use for WhatsApp? Then you wouldn't be linked to your friends anymore, right?

Right, your friends would basically need to have your phone and whatsapp contact which is not really practical.

And most people when traveling have no problem finding wifi access. So I think the market for this must have very particular needs.

That's interesting, but what are the rates for regular data and phone calls? I won't carry an extra phone for each messenger ;-) The site only lists the price for legacy MMS. Also, which country prefix will the phone number have, or do you get multiple numbers? People are usually hesitant to call numbers from other countries.

Edit: I would definitely pay 10 EUR for something like this on top of my current plan. In the spirit of net neutrality, it shouldn't be tied to a single service, though. Instead, they could just sell a low rate data connection.

From the FAQ at http://www.whatsim.com/en/faq:

  Can I make calls, send text messages or surf the Internet?

  No, WhatSim only allows you to chat with WhatsApp.

Unless you can do all that via Whatsapp chat :) Wow, what a potential!

Does this mean the phone needs to be a smartphone with WhatsApp installed? Or can a brickphone be used with this sim in order to communicate on WhatsApp?

> I won't carry an extra phone for each messenger

Then you're probably not part of the target market. In a lot of developing countries (India etc), WhatsApp is the primary reason to get a phone.

but developing countries still prefer to talk over chat.. if it comes to phone. young people in india use WhatApp as an alternative to email. so like we dont pay for email address.. no one will pay for WhatApp.. there are alternative like viber.. quite popular in india

You don't pay for an email address, because thanks to email interoperability (not openness, which is a separate albeit related thing) a free email address is a decent substitute for a non-free email address. Viber is not the same kind of substitute for WhatsApp when all your friends/family are on WhatsApp. (I live in a market where everybody is on Viber btw, so the WhatsApp card is worthless even if they paid me $0.01 for each WhatsApp message sent)

Plus many phones in those markets are dual-SIM, so you would still have a voice / data SIM installed.

Don't most dual-SIM phones allow only one of the SIM cards to be used for data connections?

Can anyone explain this to me? I don't get it from the website.

Why is there a limit on sending photos, etc..? WhatsApp doesn't limit such thing right?

Probably because it uses more traffic than simple text messages, and someone sending tons of pictures would break their price calculations.

Canada in zone 3? That seems a little bit too much different.

It is probably using SMS servers to send text messages (that's why it's free) and MMS to send media (that's why it's paid)

SMS actually costs a lot more per unit data compared to mobile data.

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