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Comment by potatolicious | Hacker News Reader

More than Windows sucking, the OEM laptop industry has largely fumbled hardware. For a while it looked like Dell and/or Samsung might actually give Apple a run for its money in terms of design and quality, but that fell flat on its face.

I'm a pretty biased sample, but honestly I know more people running non-OSX on Apple laptops than I know people running non-OSX on non-Apple laptops. Apple's laptops beat the rest of the industry even without the OS.

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It's a big branding issue as well.

I know Apple makes two laptops: MBAs and MBPs.

I don't know what all laptops Dell or Lenovo make. I don't know if they have ultrabooks, and if they do, what are their names.

When I buy a new Windows laptop, I sort by specs, not brand. I avoid a few brands (HP, Acer), but as long as I get good enough specs at a good enough price, I'll buy anything.

I don't care about specific models/brands in Dell, Samsung or Lenovo because I don't even know if they exist, and if they do, why I should give a crap about them.

Very true. Consider that this is the main Laptops* page on samsung.com: http://www.samsung.com/ca/consumer/office/mobile-computing

It's as if they want their laptops to be as generic as possible.

* They don't even have a Laptops page. They have an ATIV page which bundles everything from mice to all-in-ones under the brand.

Dear God, that's a terrible brand name. If I wasn't computer savvy, I'd think 'ATIV' is some new data transfer protocol.

Compare that with this: http://www.apple.com/macbook-air/ and you can see why Apple is pulling ahead of everyone

A perfect demonstration of this problem is when you search Amazon for "Asus zenbook".

It gives me a hundred results with various SKUs and model years and I have NO idea as a consumer which one is the best fit for me.

Search Amazon for "macbook". And you will see a similar pattern.

Serious question, what makes Apple laptops beat the rest of the industry?

No docking station, can't change batteries, no touch screens, no spill resistant keyboards, no matte screen option,etc.

You also need those dongles for ethernet and video and can't upgrade RAM or hard drives on the retina models.

Sure, the OS (if you need/like OSX, there is little choice), and the trackpad (if you like that those) are good, the rest? meh.

I rather have a Thinkpad that can take a lot of abuse.

Probably something to do with forgoing all the things you mentioned so that they could nail the true purpose of a laptop, while also making it aesthetically pleasing. This is a tenet of who Apple is as a company. Whether you agree with the aesthetic position is a personal preference. The figures speak for themselves though... a large proportion of consumers which includes IT professionals want what Apple sells more than they want the things in your Thinkpad.

*Edit for spelling.

The vast majority of customers don't care about any of those. They're willing to pay a little more for something that is reliable, not too heavy, looks nice, well designed, and sturdy. These are things that bring people utility but won't show up on a specs sheet.

I understand your point, i really do. And I can understand why people would choose Macbooks, I understand the appeal, I just want to point out that they are not the only laptops in the market with those characteristics.

Maybe most consumers don't care about other features (minimalism can be good and a feature by itself) and a Mac is ideal for them, that is fine, I just disagree that only MBP have those qualities

The short answer is that Apple is willing to not try to check all the boxes in favor of building something which works for most people.

Better keyboard, (infinitely) better touchpad, better chassis (to the touch).

The places where my hands interact with the machine are much more efficient and pleasing on a mac than any other machine (which is sad, because I LOVED my Thinkpads in the early 2000s).

> The places where my hands interact with the machine are much more efficient and pleasing on a mac

In general I'll agree with you but there is ONE thing that I don't like on Macs and still exists to this day (I believe). The notch in the aluminum below the trackpad to make it easy to open the machine has sharp left and right right angles, and that pokes me from time to time.

I figure that's one of those 'this looks better' things, but it wasn't a problem on the older machines that had physical latches and a button to open the lid.

Every Macbook I buy I use some sandpaper (medium coarse and then fine) to round the sharp corners between the sides and the surface containing the keyboard & trackpad. I especially round the sharp points on the corners of finger-cutout to open the lid.

I also slightly round the edges where the sides meet the top and bottom surface of the case.

The result is that those sharp unpleasant feeling corners are now silky smooth, around a 1 mm radii. I'm surprised Apple didn't design it this way in the first place.

Note: It's important to be cautious not get any aluminum dust in any of the ports or electronics.

I do the same and can confirm it works like a charm.

No docking station - Don't really need one. Thunderbolt can handle most everything, and then you just have power. In my experience most people I see use a laptop only use power and maybe a wireless mouse receiver and a monitor. I don't see many people plugging 12 things in.

Batteries - Macs get phenomenal battery life, it's not an issue for most people. Much like iPhones there is an argument for swappable batteries but it doesn't seen to have a large effect on sales. People seem happier with the thinness and weight savings, or at least don't mind the tradeoff much.

Spill resistant keyboards - Are most PC laptops outside of the toughbook market? I wouldn't have even thought about this.

Matte screen - That was an issue. I am typing from the last matte screen MBP Apple made, I didn't like the gloss. I've seen the newer machines in person and while they do reflect more light they're much better than they were years ago. The better contrast and color saturation would be worth it to me when I replace my laptop.

Then again, I imagine the average person always liked the glossy screens because they looked better at first (much like the poorly adjusted TVs at BestBuy).

Some Macs still have Ethernet, but WiFi is pretty ubiquitous. When I'm at my desk I'd just plug an adapter into my monitor and it would work (thanks to Thunderbolt). RAM and HD are another design decision Apple has made that people seem to accept.

I do love OS X. You seem almost dismissive of the trackpad, but I LOVE the thing. I'm guessing you're a TrackPoint person, and I get that. But the laptop world seems to have standardized on touchpads and Apple's are phenomenal. For years they were MUCH bigger than PCs and the gestures works great. For years PC laptops (especially budget ones) seemed to have odd 'scroll strips' and I read complaints about them in reviews.

I'll also mention MagSafe. It's saved my laptop numerous times and is extremely easy and fast to connect (or disconnect).

In general Apple's laptops are just well built and feel solid. Some PCs are like that, many aren't due to cost. If I'm going to use a machine every day for 4 years I want to know it's well built and holds up well. That's never been a problem with my Macs, anecdotally I've heard things all over the place for PC brands. Things where Lenovo makes great laptops except for line 'X' which is built poorly, or the 2013 version of thing 'Y'.

There is a lot to be said for a well built laptop with very consistent quality, thin, low weight, and excellent parts. It's easy to try Apple stuff in person thanks to stores and it's easy to narrow down what you want because they don't sell 40 individual models (before customization). There is a very large 'no hassle' factor when it comes to buying, I don't have to worry that I spent 5 hours picking the right machine only to have it show up on my doorstep as something I don't like and have to send back.

> (if you need/like OSX, there is little choice)

Now THIS is a potential problem to me. I don't blame Apple for not selling OS X, but I know that I'm at Apple's behest. If they decide to make computers I don't like for a few years I know I either have to wait it out or switch platforms. With a Windows laptop you decide to leave Lenovo and go to Dell or HP without having to change your whole day-to-day environment.

(I'm ignoring Hackintoshes. I don't want to spend the time to deal with the possible problems.)

>> In general Apple's laptops are just well built and feel solid. Some PCs are like that, many aren't due to cost. If I'm going to use a machine every day for 4 years I want to know it's well built and holds up well.

Be glad you're not like me and are stuck with a lemon like the 2011 Macbook Pro. It's a well built (chassis-wise, at least) and solid brick with a well known design defect that Apple refuses to acknowledge exists.

I have since left Apple, mainly the unibody Macbook Pros that I love so much have been discontinued in favor of models with soldered on RAM, expensive to replace SSDs. I'm not a fan of how Apple is "closing up" the expandability of their hardware.

With the current Macbooks, I wouldn't have been able to upgrade from 4GB to 8GB to 16GB of RAM as the prices came down (and without paying Apple's exorbitant prices for RAM), or upgrade their hard drive to a hybrid drive, and to growing sizes of SSDs as the prices came down. Damn, I miss those unibodies.

I've had that kind of problem before, and I can also tell you the old PowerBooks in the G4 era could be pretty bad. You were thrilled to upgrade because it made a big difference. I've owned some of the older laptops where bits would start wearing out.

My current laptop is a 2010 MBP and I've upgraded both the RAM and the HD, neither one is an option now. The upfront costs are higher than they used to be, and I'm not a fan of that.

But that's part of the price of liking Apple hardware. It's the tradeoff they've decided to make and it's not enough to offset the other benefits and drive me away.

I've seen enough Apple hardware at work and from friends to generally think it's good quality and not worry too much about buying my next machine from them.

Well, let me tell you, I have never retired a PC laptop for any other reason that it got slow with age. That includes the cheap ones.

My Macbook Pro was almost four years old but still quite fast. I replaced the logic board once under AppleCare, but it died out of warranty just before Christmas. I am not interested in paying 500+ for a new logic board with the same defect that my two previous logic boards had. There are plenty of other people in the same boat as me.

Any good will that I had for Apple is now long gone. I'm just hoping I can get something out of the class action that has been filed.

I don't blame you. I'm not sure what I'd do in that situation. "Wait it out" is a good strategy if there is a design element in the new machines you don't like (I did that with the early glossy screens) but if your current machine is defective and basically can't be fixed I wouldn't blame you for jumping ship at all.

It's too bad situations like this end up in court where even if you get made whole it takes years and years and in the mean time you're just stuck with extra costs.

The worst part - Apple has a great reputation for customer service, and as today's numbers prove, they could easily afford making me and my fellow owners of problematic 2011 MBPs whole, but they've kept their head in the sand about it.

It's unfortunate, because I used to be a promoter of Apple products to people I know. These days, not so much. In fact, I typically don't have much good to say about them at all. This might not have been the case had they been proactive about fixing this problem.

I know they pull the "you've been through enough' here is a new machine" thing to help customers. But how many more mobos do you have to go through to get to that point. How much time would you waste?

> the old PowerBooks in the G4 era could be pretty bad. You were thrilled to upgrade because it made a big difference

While I understand and respect your position, it made me smile that since someone was selling you pretty bad things, where bits would start wearing out, you were thrilled to give them more money for other things.

Apple can really have the pie and eat it!

It wasn't that so much as the G4s were so underpowered that you'd jump at an excuse to get a faster one. I never had any real problem with them other than minor cosmetic things from heavy use.

I have a 2012 MBP and it's the last of the good ones I feel. A real pity because I don't know what to move to when the time comes!

(I too fear the insane RAM prices).

The good thing is that the 15" models have CPUs that are pretty fast, even today. The 2012's CPUs produce much less heat than the 2011s, so I tend to think that you're good beyond 2017 if you don't do anything that requires you to constantly get CPU speed bumps.

That's the message I want to hear. Thanks!

I do compile C++ in parallel frequently under Xcode, but I don't stress it for gaming other than for a few hours once a night. Stays cool most of the time (other than gaming, it goes mental then).

> Spill resistant keyboards - Are most PC laptops outside of the toughbook market? I wouldn't have even thought about this.

Who cares if the keyboard is spill-resistant if they'll sell you accidental damage protection for a reasonable price? In that case, spill-resistance is more their problem than yours and it is often designed in. Lenovo, HP, Dell and others sell ADP as a warranty add-on. AFAIK, Apple doesn't - you'd have to go to a third party like Best Buy or SquareTrade (with the hassle of the extra company / moving parts that introduces).

  > Matte screen - That was an issue. I am typing from the last matte screen 
  > MBP Apple made, I didn't like the gloss. I've seen the newer machines in 
  > person and while they do reflect more light they're much better than they
  > were years ago. The better contrast and color saturation would be worth it
  > to me when I replace my laptop.

I am still rockin' my 2009 matte screen 15"! The ipad air 2 screen (in stores) seems like the new reduced reflectivity coating helps quite a bit. I am hoping they bring that to the next rev of the laptop screens.

> Some Macs still have Ethernet, but WiFi is pretty ubiquitous.

WiFi is fine for when you are on the move, but for serious use, I wouldn't trade an ethernet connection.

I'm in a office right now with over 500 people, all with laptops, tablets, mobile phones, and the WiFi is pretty crappy. I wouldn't want to depend on WiFi as my main network connection in any kind of office environment.

I definitely got a way better deal by a local merchant than any with any Apple laptop[1].

1: http://www.linux-onlineshop.de/Linux-Hardware/Linux-Notebook...

Apple laptop market share is <15% IIRC. Phone sales are the eye-popper for a single company, but even there, Android market share is crazy high.

Apple may sell more than any other single company in some markets, but their overall market dominance is mostly an illusion trumpeted by advocates.

All that is true, but it is also the biggest company in the world.

No, it's not. It's not even in the top ten.

On what metric? Market cap says they're top dog:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_public_corporations_by_...

Oh, fair enough. But I think that's a poor metric, since it's much more "virtual" than metrics that actually affect the economy, like turnover. I prefer Forbes average of four metrics: http://www.forbes.com/sites/liyanchen/2014/05/07/the-worlds-...

That Forbes article was also written when Apple's market cap was "only" $483B. As of today it is $680B.

You are mixing market share dominance with market dominance. Two very different concepts.

That's exactly the contrast I was drawing, yet to only talk about only one creates a cognitive distortion. One strong enough to confuse people into thinking that Apple dominates the laptop market when I think, but can't find the specific confirmation numbers, that Lenovo sells more laptops. That's one brand vs. Apple. Consider the wider market, and "market dominance" is a much a misnomer in the small as "market share domination" is in the large.

The parent here was asking why the laptops are so great, but they are actually a minor, albeit interesting, part of the market and market share. By market metrics, they aren't that that amazing. They are outsold by another single brand and fall into the "Other" category when looking at market share.

I'd rather have a ThinkPad, too, and I'm using one to write this. But I think you have to recognize that the PC market is massively fragmented and if you walk into a retail outlet you're going to see a lot of laptops, and none of them are going to be ThinkPads. Lenovo undermines their own products through the same fragmentation. If I just search on Google for "laptop" there are 8 top-ranked shopping items, one of which is a link to Best Buy to buy a 15.6" AMD-based Lenovo G50, which is a complete piece of shit no matter how you look at it. There are no piece of shit in Apple's catalog.

Now let's suppose it was just ThinkPads going head-to-head with MacBooks. I'd take the ThinkPad every time, except if it was a ThinkPad made in the last two years. They took a break from making good computers and instead decided to make expensive, fragile ThinkPads with useless keyboards and no mouse buttons. Apple can ship a laptop with no mouse buttons because Apple's software works. Lenovo doesn't have that luxury; they run Windows.

And let's not forget how many years Lenovo spent pissing on their loyal customers. For YEARS they insisted that it was not possible to 1) economically source IPS displays, and 2) source 4:3 displays. Then Apple comes out with the iPad, it has a 4:3 IPS display. Turns out Lenovo just didn't care if you had a good screen; they know you need a laptop and they are just trying to squeeze more profits out of you. Apple actually wants you to have a better product.

Now as I said I'm typing this on a ThinkPad. Why? Only two reasons: trackpoint, which is God's own pointing device, and a huge Esc key, for using vim. There are other minor reasons, like the fact that if you drop a MacBook it's guaranteed to get bent or dented, whereas if you drop a ThinkPad some little plastic giblet will break off, which is a better outcome in my experience. But if you forced me to think about it I'd have to admit that it's a reasonably durable case and a decent keyboard and mouse wrapped around a really mediocre computer. And the display is ghastly.

Another Thinkpad (X230) owner here. Mine has an SSD and works really well, and I get a replaceable battery which I wouldn't with an Air. However -- my wife wouldn't consider buying one because of the quality of the display.

I suspect Macbook Airs sell well because they're designed with a wide swathe of people in mind.

Recent Thinkpads are a horror show. The t440p has a touchpad so atrocious it renders the trackpoint unusable (because the L/R buttons are part of the touchpad). Palm rejection is nonexistent. And yes, the screen is awful, with a tiny vertical viewing sweet spot.

It looks like the X1 Carbon (3rd Gen) might be adequate, but the more compact X240 still has the virtual mouse buttons.

The coming lineup has restored the trackpoint buttons. I have a t440s and the clickpad is horrible! I'm selling it as soon as the T450s is available.

People want the *nix underpinnings of OS X. So many people would be lost if they had to transition to Windows. You don't see many non Visual Studio programmers programing in Windows. Certainly not your Ruby on Rails Macbook sitting in Hackerdojo/Red Rock types.

I think this is accurate about the nix underpinnings of OSX. I spent years and years and years on Linux faffing around every distro upgrade, fighting with drivers, spending so much time getting stuff working, and then they pulled the stunt of new desktop paradigms, chucking 30+ years of desktop interaction in the bin, so I bought a MacBook after using OSX at work for some years and having a Mac Mini at home for some time. It is a joy to be able to continue doing nix things whilst having an accelerated window manager (Quartz), although it still needs some things to make it more usable (like installing ShiftIt for window movement with the keyboard).

Using Windows is more and more of a pain to me, particularly as Visual Studio 2010 is dog-slow for me compared to Xcode. I know I need to buy a new version of VC++ but it is now always a clunky-screen-refreshing-whirly-cursor-many-folders-shown-in-Explorer-inconsistent-navigation-and-buttons-shortcuts-hyperlinks experience in Windows. Sigh.

You can get VS 2013 Community Edition for free (it is basically the Pro edition with a different name), for your personal use or for companies with less than 5 people.

Thanks for the heads up. I will definitely have to get that downloaded and sorted under a VM some time soon.

Is it really just the Pro version? Is distribution of software created with it limited?

Yes it is the Pro version with a different name, no time limitation ... You can read more on Microsoft VS page: http://www.visualstudio.com/products/visual-studio-community...

Small excerpt:

Visual Studio Community 2013 includes all the great functionality of Visual Studio Professional 2013, designed and optimized for individual developers, students, open source contributors, and small teams.

Thanks very much, the individual developer tis I! Thanks!

I'm on a 2013 Macbook Pro right now. I've had zero problems with it. It's fast, reliable, quality hardware with a battery that lasts me around 10 hours a day (if I use Safari, if I use Chrome it cuts the battery down to 7-8 hours...it's really a hog now).

BUT, I'm in the market for a new Laptop. I'm one of the few people that liked the announcements from Microsoft about Windows 10 and honestly, I'm bored with Mac right now. So I'm looking at good laptops that will exceed or at least meet the quality and battery longevity of the Macbook Pro. So I'm seriously looking at the new (not out yet, but announced) Thinkpad T250s. Great keyboard and unique Track-point mouse (always intrigued me), battery life near 20 hours (with the extra 6-cell battery option), durable build (like a tank), and the ability to dock it. Not to mention I could also throw Linux on it without any problems (Linux on this Macbook Pro is spotty at best, as some things work, some are wonky...same with Bootcamp and Windows).

But bottom line is, which platform you choose doesn't really matter much anymore. I could switch over to Windows from being 100% Apple for the past 8 years and not have much of a problem.

I too noticed that Chromium is a real CPU hog, which is unfortunate on a laptop! The ability to see which processes are power intensive is very useful, and I try and use Safari instead. Pity really as Chrome is quite good!

Glad it wasn't just me who noticed this.

If you've ever used one you'd immediately notice the build quality, responsiveness, usability and a zillion other factors which are hard to quantify.

Comparing spec sheets doesn't do justice to the actual experience of using one. If you're serious, borrow one from a friend for a few days.

I have owned dozens of Macs (personal and work), from the clamshell iBook, TiBook, White iBooks, to the latest MacBooks and a few iMacs too. I'm very familiar with the platform ;-)

Most of the time they are above the average PC/Laptop, I do give you that, but recent models have reduced functionality (non replaceable batteries, memory, HDD, dongles for ethernet, etc) all in the name of Form over Function.

Isn't the SSD replaceable on all of them? Sure, there are trade offs, but do you think built in Ethernet is important enough to warrant making a laptop thicker, given the WiFi speeds we have today?

I thought they still did a 15" model with built in DVD drive but alas no! They only do a 13" offering.

I have a 2012 MBP NON-retina that has all the ports you'd need (Thunderbolt/Mini DisplayPort, Ethernet, FireWire, USB3 x 2), DVD writer, line in, line out, battery life indicator (push a button and see green LEDs), SD card reader but it really was the last of the "good ones" in my opinion. I can change the battery in it and can also upgrade the RAM (it isn't soldered to the board like the new ones). Unfortunately the screen isn't super-high resolution but that's not a problem for me.

I find the build quality to be good, and it feels sturdy. Perhaps I am looking at the wrong end of PC laptops but they now always feel flexible and plasticky. They typically only use metal on the part by the keyboard but the rest of them are still bendy plastic. A few Samsungs and Sony have felt better but they don't feel robust and quality to me.

I see someone at work using a MacBook Air and they have to use a Thunderbolt adapter for ethernet and a USB adapter for connecting an external screen, and suddenly it isn't as convenient with all those dongles hanging off it. Great for wandering around and travelling though, which is likely the market for it.

But as you say, a Thinkpad is likely a PC alternative, I wouldn't consider anything else. (I wouldn't give it abuse though - why the need to throw your expensive device around???)

> No docking station

Don't need one. Wifi, bluetooth keyboard/mouse, external display, and other external peripherals haven't been relevant in the past five years.

> can't change batteries

Fair point I guess, but the battery life is pretty long already (also compared to competitors), and for me personally, I have a static workspace so I don't miss it.

> no touch screens

I think OSX was slowly heading towards that a while ago (with gestures, Launchpad, etc), before someone cut that off saying "OSX is not a touch screen operating system". I don't miss it.

> no spill resistant keyboards

They could use this actually, I've heard too many stories of people having huge repair bills because they spilled onto their shiny laptops.

> no matte screen option

...anymore, :/. No 17 inch anymore either. I guess those were two things that just didn't sell well enough - iirc, the 17 inch MBP only took up 1-2% of total Mac sales.

A static workspace where you prefer to look downwards on a relatively small monitor on level with the keyboard, to a properly placed desktop monitor and accessories placed where they are physically convenient to use? What does your work consist of, exactly – not using the computer?

MacBooks come with built in HDMI and/or displayport - what about that precludes an external monitor?

As for the keyboard/mouse combo, bluetooth has worked well there for ages...

I am one of a handful of MBPro users in a sea of corporate Dell laptops. My 18 month old Pro still looks great. Dell laptops look very used after just a few months. This is true even of the newer Dell ultrabooks that look like plastic imitations of a MacBook Air.

And I get many comments from people wishing they could use a Mac instead of a Dell Windows machine.

I think this is a big part of it. I would rather run Windows on an Macbook Pro than any of the other hardware (although the new Lenovo machines are getting closer). That said it is still the phone/tablet/media streams that dominate their income.

>> I would rather run Windows on an Macbook Pro than any of the other hardware

I honestly don't get why people often say that Macbooks are the best Windows laptops.

I have always found the Windows on Mac experience to be sub-par with respect to the key placement, driver behavior, and oversensitive scrolling with Apple mice.

I far prefer running Windows on a similarly equipped PC laptop. On the two Macbooks that I have run BootCamp on, I have always found it somewhat painful dealing with the subtle but noticeable differences related to the keyboard and pointing devices.

That hasn't been my experience. I find the mouse experience equivalent to my Lenovo. The Lenovo maxes out with an HD screen (1920 x 1080) and has about 2/3rds the battery life. I will concede the keyboard point. I pretty much hate all laptop keyboards equally though.

I probably should have specified that my issue is with the Magic Mouse with Windows in particular. It just scrolls when I don't want it to, and when it does, it's stupid fast. I don't have that issue with any non-Apple mouse that I have.

I too find the trackpad (which is a joy to use under OSX) to be a clunky ill-performing appliance under Windows. It suddenly becomes a real nuisance to use (ie, no I want to move a window not drag and select). I resort to using an external mouse when I reboot to Windows on my MacBook.

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