Michael Jordan Has Not Left the Building (2013) | Hacker News Reader

Michael Jordan Has Not Left the Building (2013)

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71 pointssergeant351 comments

This being HN, my first reaction was that this article was about the famous machine learning professor (who unfortunately shares his name with someone way more famous than him), until I realized the domain is espn.go.com :)

I was hoping.

That sounds awesome.

I was all excited thinking he was coming out of retirement to play ball. :(

Quite possibly the most self centered, self serving egotistical a-hole EVER.

I have plenty of stories about him, but the HOF speech was a peach. Instead of thanking his family and teammates for helping him achieve his records, he turned his speech into a bully pulpit, admonishing his fucking high school coach for not selecting him for the varsity team and other people he flight slighted by his entire career.

Sure he has a ton of money and is one of the NBA greats, but it all came at a cost of his dignity and character. I'm actually quite happy he's a miserable failure as owner, it serves him right.

He's the greatest basketball player ever. He's the most competitive athlete I know of. He's an athletic genius.

Similar to the stories of Steve Jobs berating colleagues, employees, rivals, etc. there are anecdotes about Jordan doing the same in his field.

He's not known as the Greatest Human Of All Time...he's the Greatest Basketball Player Of All Time.

I've learned that Greatest X of all time usually just means, greatest A-hole of all time.

Because they absorb so much energy from the universe in order to fulfill their self serving destiny that they cannot help but be viewed as selfish. They quite literally demand the respect that they receive.

Call it the theory of conservation of human energy.

Obviously it's not universal (Federer in tennis, Gaze in AU basketball, etc) but I wonder if it's more common?

And whether it's that attitude that helps them achieve, or more that the success enables poor behaviour.

There's no doubt that Federer and other great sports figures are well mannered and handle their success with extraordinary grace. However, if your definition of a-hole includes 1) being ruthlessly competitive and/or 2) believing you are better than your competition (even if that hasn't been convincingly demonstrated), I'd wager many of these figures would fit the bill, Federer included.

Personally, I find 2) unbearably obnoxious, but it's something I'm willing to forgive if they provide evidence in the affirmative, as Federer certainly has. I think we have to permit a certain amount of elitism, because it would be dishonest to expect that these players refrain from acknowledging their positions within the respective pantheons of their sports.

PG should write a corollary to the Ronco essay about how the greatest individuals in highly competitive skill-based fields are all aholes.

Federer seems like a decent enough guy...

I haven't seen any evidence that's true.

Magic Johnson and Larry Bird weren't. Kareem Abdul Jabbar wasn't. Hakeem Olajuwon wasn't. Brady and Manning aren't. Jerry Rice wasn't. Emmitt Smith wasn't. Tim Duncan isn't. Derek Jeter wasn't. Greg Maddux wasn't. Hank Aaron wasn't. Tony Gwynn wasn't. Ken Griffey Jr wasn't. Aaron Rodgers and Russell Wilson aren't.

I'd argue that the radical majority of elite athletes are not.

Even Tiger Woods, who is famous for being chilly in public, isn't known to be a big ahole despite whatever his personal life failings are/were.

Wayne Gretzky wasn't!

(Come on!)

I think that, while elite athletes all have a competitive streak, there's a lot of natural variation in personality as well. Larry Bird may not have been an asshole off the court, but if you were guarding him it was a different story.

The other thing to note is that, as long as you avoid doing something stupid like throwing people through plate glass windows, it's easy for PR to do a lot of magic. Most people never realized what MJ was really like while he was still playing. Brett Favre was kind of a dick, but it took most of his career until that was found out. Ultimately we don't know what these people are really like. Who knows what lies behind Tim Duncan's placid exterior?

It's not unanimously accepted that he's the greatest basketball player of all time. You have to take into account things like the illegal defense era (his era), which made it easy for superstars to shine. Tracy McGrady, for example, admitted his points per game average went from 32 to 22 overnight because of the introduction of zone defense.

Likewise, the NBA has become vastly more competitive and international since Jordan's prime, i.e. greater demographics competing to enter, overall raising the mean athletic ability.

Jordan is clearly a great, but one among others, like Kobe and LeBron, neither of whom are actually A-holes like Jordan.

Jordan is the best. There really isn't a debate. Kobe and Lebron would tell you this without batting an eye.

Kobe and Lebron are both giant assholes. I'm not sure how you don't agree with this. Do you not follow sports news? Jordan is also a giant asshole. He is just far enough removed from playing the game that people forget about how he redefined/saved the NBA, they only judge him on the past 5 years.

I strongly disagree with your characterization. MJ has even said he wasn't sure who'd win him vs. Kobe.

There is plenty of debate. Don't forget the league-wide diluting effects of the '89 and '95 expansion drafts, something I neglected to mention. People really do underestimate how less competitive Jordan's era was than today (but many fans do get it).

I'm a longtime NBA fan, and I follow basketball news regularly + compete in bball fantasy leagues.

And no, Kobe and LBJ are not assholes on Jordan's level. Jordan is notorious for being an asshole, unlike the former two.

There were teams that played zone defense in the 90's, like George Karl's Sonics did at times. They just had to be sneaky about it.

What makes you think Kobe and LeBron aren't a-holes?

Also, I've thought for years that LeBron not being more of an a-hole is why he doesn't win more often. He loves to win. Jordan hated to lose. That's the difference.

PS - Tracy McGrady's scoring didn't dip from 32 to 22 overnight, and when it did dip, it had more to do with his lack of conditioning and his body breaking down than it did with any rule changes.

This is a bit harsh. Jordan is the ultimate competitor and he represents excellence and professionalism. He has single handedly revolutionized professional sports and marketing and every kid growing up in the 90s wanted to be him. He has no need to be humble.

He doesn't need to be humble, but if he wants to be part of a community or not face this criticism, he should be.

> He has single handedly revolutionized professional sports and marketing...

I think you might want to give some credit to the marketing team at nike that more or less told him what to say/do, promoted him + the products, cleaned up after all his messes, and prevented bad press from coming out. Which all lent to his further successes.

At least that's what I've heard.

At least he didn't throw people out of plate glass windows, rape anyone, or have a whole TV special to announce what team he was going to sign for as a free agent.

But you have to wonder what he did that allowed Juanita to take him to the bank during the divorce.

Here's one anecdote from a rapper named Chamillionaire on meeting MJ, who was his childhood idol: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y4ZQERHL6ow

Wow, this just ruined my day and a lot of my childhood memories.

I can personally confirm this after an incident from 15 years ago that I wont get into...but know that I'm from Chicago, and our paths most definitely crossed. I don't think the man has a single redeeming quality. Many more stories floating around about him, especially in this city. I have a suspicion that he is absolutely miserable deep down.

I see the complete opposite. Virtually everyone in his position is pressured and expected to project a likeable image and recite a wholesome rolemodel's script.

I thank God, my friends and family, and the perseverance of my teammates for what we've accomplished. I am blessed. Don't belive it? Too bad, the brand deal depends on it so stick to the script.

Jordan was and is different. I might not agree with him, but he stands for what he believes, he speaks up about how he feels, and I admire that far more than I admire someone who has no opinions or suppresses them for the sake of being liked.

It's sad that we live in a society where those who step out of line to say what they mean are told they're assholes who deserve their failures.

> It's sad that we live in a society where those who step out of line to say what they mean are told they're assholes who deserve their failures.

It's sad that you can't step out of line on HN and call people assholes without having someone telling you you should respect those a-holes JUST because they are successful.

I don't think you should respect anyone because of their success. I never said anything about Jordan's success.

I do however think you should respect people for being truthful and open, which I did credit to him.

> I do however think you should respect people for being truthful and open, which I did credit to him.

No, if that person's being an ass, there's no reason to respect them, period. Even if they are truthfully, openly being an ass. It's only because he is in a position of influence that he can afford being an ass in public and still be respected by some people.

So running up and down a court and putting a ball in a hole better than anyone else gives you license to verbally shit on anyone you come across because they can't? What exactly does he stand for besides making as much as possible off overpriced sneakers/merch built off sweatshop labor, shooting a ball in a hole (extraordinarily well), and being a dick in general to most people he comes across?

Can you show me where Jordan has spent his life shitting on everyone else that can't do what he did?

You're going beyond exaggeration.

Actually he's not.

You start with his Hall of Fame speech which was pretty shocking for everybody in attendance. Not before or since has a player admonished so many people he felt were beneath him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLzBMGXfK4c

Here's some excerpt's from an ESPN article:

"The greatest athlete of our time made sure to point out the high school coach who didn't put him on the varsity his sophomore year. (He was never cut, per se. That's an urban myth akin to Catfish Hunter's nickname origin.) He pointed out the guy who made the team "over" him, who was in the audience; his college roommate, Buzz Peterson; the NBA vets who froze him out in his first All-Star Game, two of whom were there, George Gervin (who presented David Robinson) and Isiah Thomas (who presented John Stockton); Jazz guard Bryon Russell, who was guarding him on his final shot in a Bulls uniform; and, of course, former Bulls general manager Jerry Krause, with whom he had real conflict during his career. Krause, forever the outsider looking in, made the mistake of claiming he was skipping Jordan's induction because former coach Tex Winter, the originator of the triangle offense, wasn't inducted."

"Onstage, Jordan adroitly, and unnecessarily, noted Krause wasn't invited before going on a diatribe about how organizations don't win championships, great players like him do"

"Jordan, not known for being cheap, even commented on the high prices the Hall of Fame charged for this evening because of his induction, noting that he had to pay for his tickets. It was a small sniping comment for a man who could be the first athlete to be worth $1 billion, but he hates people making money off him, unless he's getting a cut."

I don't think Jordan's accomplishments have anything to do with his being an asshole, or his license to be an asshole. This isn't even about Jordan at all.

I just think everyone should be free to speak their mind with as much brutal honesty as they wish, without that being taken as license to dismiss everything they say and to wish harm upon them.

It's a common trope, particularly among the more intellectually focused, to reduce sports to mindless drudgery.

Steve Jobs: success built on talents of others (Woz), used sweatshop labor, and was very much a dick as well. Minimal technical talent. Jordan, when his team was down, could take over the game as a matter of choice. Apple took an investment from Microsoft when they were against the ropes.

This is late but I regard jobs as a talentless, opportunistic hack that got lucky, piggybacking and exploiting truly gifted people like Woz and Ives. He was an exploitative bastard that could see and cash in on other peoples talent, but was vacant in those categories himself. And the Mac classic was the shittiest computer placed on this planet.

It's great that Jordan says what he really thinks. But we also like it when players are humble. We want both, there's no contradiction. So yes, that means we want players to say humble things, and mean it.

Sports culture is funny. Fans/the system treat these guys like deities and also expect them to be humble. I actually like it when they're assholes.

And you said "one of the NBA greats," come on man don't like your dislike for him get in the way of what he is: the greatest player the league has seen.

I think great inherent ability coupled with great drive inevitably leads to a-hole qualities. It's a formula for lack of empathy if you start off gifted, drive yourself relentlessly, and can't process failure. If you can't forgive yourself for falling short, how in the world can you hope to develop a measure of such for other people?

Fair point, although I wonder if we'd have these elite players if they were more willing to tolerate failure in themselves.

The man is obviously flawed, but a lot of the criticism is petty and no better than Jordan's own kvetching. I'm sure we all know plenty of other ego-maniacs who don't even have something real to brag about.

Update on the Bobcats (for those interested):

They've rebranded to the Hornets, attracted some great talent (Al Jefferson) and have put together a solid team. Today, he teared up accepting the "Charlotte Business Journal's Business Person of the Year" award after being criticized so much for his decisions as an owner.

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/12205207/michael-jordan-ge...

They were pretty solid last year.

This year they're terrible. 18-25 record. That's not likely to improve in the second half, and that's in the east where it's drastically easier to win. Certainly it's a step up from the prior epically bad years.

I think it remains to be seen whether you can build a consistent winner in a city like Charlotte. The NBA is dominated by a few franchises, with the concentration of winners being twice as great as in the NFL and MLB. Going by the last 30 some odd years, there are roughly 20 teams that can never win a championship under any circumstances.

They're still bad, they've lost 8 more games than they've won (17-25) in the lesser NBA conference and wouldn't make the playoffs if the playoffs began today. The NBA is not starting a company, you can't identify needs and produce a solution for them. You have to wait around to be able to draft or sign or trade for elite players. Few basketball executives are good at this, it's extraordinarily difficult and involves a lot of luck if you are outside of a major media market. But there's really no evidence Jordan is doing any better as an owner/exec.

They'd be the 8th slot if the playoffs started today.

http://espn.go.com/nba/standings

Not sure if intentional, but it reads rather like Glamorama.

Great article. The title should reflect that it's from 2013.

Thanks, updated.

>As he reaches his 50th birthday, MJ is still looking for one more ass to kick

He can start with kicking his attitude into shape.

>>they hate us cause they ain't us

He is still making tons of money

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