Is 'SimCity' Homelessness a Bug or a Feature?
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Some games that offer more freedom let you solve problems like these in more interesting ways, for example when I played Dwarf Fortress (years ago now), a common strategy was to make the nobledwarfs accommodation floodable with lava, so if they got too uppity with their demands (sometimes nobles would insist that you make certain items or not sell a certain items or they'd get furious and make everybody else unhappy) they could be dispatched. I think it'd be funny if Sim City offered a similar option.
Players would jump at genocide if it solved their problem. It would be an interesting result if it was not so predictable.
Just like in many RPG games you can make "evil" and "good" choices. In many instances, going with "evil" makes the game much easier - instead of doing a 2 hour long quest to find someone's lost ring, you can just kill the person and take their money you would get as a reward, so the immediate outcome is the same. But people like to roleplay and people don't make decisions just because they make the game easier.
I agree. I find that many games present the moral choices in a way that become a "what possible reward do I want" choice.
One of the best ways moral choices were presented were in Skyrim, with the Deadric Princes' quests. You usully had to do some horrible thing (murder, cannibalism, torture, etc.) and you would be rewarded with a cool magical item. The moral choice is glarangly present while not being explicitly stated. You either do the quest or you don't. And that resonated with me because I believe that while there are many motivations for being evil (selfishness, greed, desire of power, sadism), the motivation and reward for being good is itself.
Not useful for a Melee Class
Or look at few chapters of some The Witcher 2 let's play.
If your game is abstract puzzle (like simcity) then sure - few people would roleplay chess after all.
What to kill, I know shopkeepers, then I can have all the loot
@
You are deadOops
(It might have been only one NPC that survived, details are fuzzy.)
There's an implied benevolence to being a sim mayor - keeping people happy and employed while keeping the city clean and profitable is "success" as defined by the game. I mean, feel free to play it however you want but that's the stated metric for the game.
I agree with the person you're replying to: having the "final solution" in a city management game would be extremely unpalatable to say the least. We do not expect mayors and city planners to behave like that.
Or say, you decide to create a police state, with full surveillance and all the like. You see everyone is happy... unitl the whole thing goes to hell - because people weren't actually happy, your metrics just were wrong.
The fact that it's illegal to give my friend a sandwich in some cities sickens me.
http://www.infowars.com/feeding-the-homeless-banned-in-major...
Edit: I realize making feeding homeless illegal and outright killing them is different -- But the tragedy of these laws is palpable. Those that vote for them either grossly misunderstand the issue, or would simply do whatever they can to get rid of homeless, or both.
DF skips over this problem because it's more abstract, and it's just not this kinds of game. Another example - Crusader Kingdoms 2 - this game is all about incests, backstabbing and assasination, but somehow it's funny not deep.
I agree it's probably not good idea for games targeted at children.
Later in the series, when I experienced what it's like to BE a Little Sister, it almost made me regret "rescuing them" before, because the way they see the world as a Little Sister is quite beautiful, and they did serve a profound purpose.
The final choice seems to be a moral absolute, but it was a deeply unsettling choice, for me, to make, and to revisit again later.
(See what I did there?)
[0] http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Atrocities_%28SMAC%29
I've not played Dwarf Fortress for a while, but were there any consequences to killing the nobledwarfs like that? The game is so comprehensive I'm wondering if the creators considered that strategy.
[1]http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Unfortunate_accident
I mean, you see countless arguments about stair shaft vs single floors, trap paths vs artillery paths, optimal pumps, delegation of jobs, etc, but everyone agrees that nobles should go in the lava.
I have not played SimCity for a long, long time, but IIRC it's meant to be less a "game" and more of a "interactive simulation". In that context, whether the emergent behavior is fun or not would not be the main point.
Or maybe the new SimCitys (SimCities?) are not like that anymore.
Do you really believe it was ever a serious simulation?!
> Ultimately it's a game to be played for entertainment, and if you can get some people to think about social issues as they play it that's wonderful, but it's still supposed to be enjoyable.
Right now "it" seems to refer to "homelessness" from the previous sentence, which confused me a bit.
In saying the game is "supposed to be" something one elides the nature of play: As players interact with the game's systems, they reify what the systems allow and encourage, not any particular targeted messages.
Simcity's presentation of homelessness is intentional. It could easily design this out and immediately disappear people who no longer have a home; it makes this exact kind of assumption in making Sims gender and race-blind. Neither does it present homelessness within a simplified framework where you just push a button to make it go away. It molds the issue into a front-and-center strategic consideration, one balanced against others.
Now, not every game can tackle every issue. What is presented in Simcity is a popularized conception of "problems a city planner must deal with." Different versions of Simcity have emphasized different parts of the city. Although more detail and more simulation can always be added, there's ultimately some pivotal focus it tends to revolve around, one which tells us the sensibilities of its maker(s). This is true even of Dwarf Fortress; the point of the simulation there is to deepen the storytelling and provide believable details about its fantasy world.
So, complaints about homelessness as it's experienced in Simcity are very much a part of the discourse - whether we say "it's not really like that" or "I have a better solution," the game is prompting a kind of criticism that doesn't appear within the typical news-reaction cycle.
Bittani could build a city simulation with blackjack an...erm psychology, anthropology, philosophy, and see if who is interested in that - and if it's not just another reflection of the maker's opinions (just one that Bittani happens to prefer).
The meta-game of effective systems design is fascinating in its own right, because the skills learned apply to real-world systems as well.
I wonder if anyone has tried modeling the problem specific to the game using something like trueworld? http://www.true-world.com/htm/en/index.html
Like in most video games, characters don't know how to climb, so the poor saps died in the 4' deep pool.
It was surprisingly easy to be evil in Sims, I don't see why one can't be evil in Sim City. It can be cathartic, and nearly everyone has those "dark thoughts", even if they don't care to admit it.
This tough boss is impeding my enjoyment of this RPG because I can't mindlessly beat it.
This tough level in an FPS is impeding my enjoyment of later levels because I can't beat it.
I can't place first in this tough racing track and that is impeding my ability to enjoy it.
Homelessness is a challenge to approach however you want. It only becomes a problem in huge cities with rapid middle and upper class expansion, ie, the late game. So if you get stuck and have a skill wall in front of you to overcome but can't, that is not a deficit of the game, that is the whole reason the game exists, to impose challenge and difficulty to overcome.
I have no idea which category this falls into, just pointing out that your examples can be legitimate.
This is the $ 150 book?! with 438 pages?
This is easy money!
Would you know how to go about convincing a large number of people to buy 438 pages worth of forum posts for $150? If so, how much time and effort do you think it would take? What do you think your hourly wage would work out to be once you combine that time with the time taken to collect and the data and actually make the book.
Depression Quest springs to mind. Or way the book the protagonist of The Fault In Our Stars loves cuts off abruptly once the main character dies, which upsets her to no end.
Now isn't planting an idea such as that Democracy is inherently Coruption-free (or something equally nonsensical) much worse brainwashing in broader scheme of things?
http://blog.transparency.org/2009/11/17/cpi2009/
And Civ is not responsible for the CPI
Very good read, deals with what your talking about: http://www.theoryoffun.com/
Randall Collins on Sandy Hook, talks a bit about use of video games: http://sociological-eye.blogspot.co.uk/2013/12/sandy-hook-sc...
And on a lighter note, regarding video games and real life, Football Manager is possibly the most realistic-feeling game I (and a hell of a lot of other people) have played - here's Steve Gibson's response to an application for the vacant manager's position at Middlesbrough, the club he's chairman of: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2011/02/you-were-of-course-outs...
NB: My Civ tactic of shooting for communism was simply to allow military units to be stacked in cities to reduce unhappiness, allowing massive military buildup to defend my civ while I poured money into science research. I did always feel for the poor sods in my cities, forced to either contribute to an all conquering soviet war machine or to work as research scientists and generate discoveries fast as possible (no, I am not building you a coliseum), but hell, I needed to win the space race/wipe out the Aztecs. I suppose it's easy to draw parallels with real life.
See: Voices from the Hellmouth
http://everything2.com/title/Voices+from+the+Hellmouth
One of the posts
The other entertaining point is the offense at the notion that America is it's entertainment. The fact that some took offense at that is interesting from both a technology standpoint and a startup standpoint. It is an imperfect mirror, reflecting why we do things and why some businesses fail and others succeed, from a certain point of view. In other words, perhaps part of why a given venture gains customers in not just need, but need coupled with entertainment used to market and sell.
Except the players were talking about beating the game, not the homeless/real-life homelessness. Not amused.
Homelessness is a real problem, but, uh... yeah. I'm going to flag this as essentially a political article (most everything vice.com publishes is).
Maybe for his next book he can chronicle how Quake is the real America too, with the mutant monsters representing ... well... whatever the hell you want since you're willing to make such huge non-sequiturs.
"To me video games are the so-called 'real France,'" he said. "The real France operates according to a video game logic, and that game logic is socialism"
That doesn't strike you as overtly and primarily political in nature? Beyond that, it's simply inane.
And a lot of chasing GDP or national wealth or Educational policy sometimes seem to be maximising some goal - like a game- rather than just running countries for the benefit of people.
I think its actually a very telling analogy if you think a little more deeply about it.
In America if you get seriously hurt you get taken to hospital and lose some money
In America you can only carry 2 guns
In America if you try and run forward and sideways at once the two velocities are combined and you run twice as fast
I guess some of them work
Just because the current president has the label "socialist" for historical reasons it doesn't make it socialism.
neo-conservate means pro war especially against non-democratic regimes they don't like seeking to remake them into democracies.
This is so totally dumb behaviour, that I can't even begin to describe it. What's equally dumb is assuming that if you agree with some group on one thing, then you should also agree on everything else.
Basically - for me, giving yourself a political label is a sign of subpar thinking. Giving others political labels is disingenuous.
I changed two words - I replaced America with France and "neo-liberalism" with "socialism".
It helps to get rid of these articles and keep the site a good one for startups/hacking/interesting articles, so for me it's worthwhile.
The article doesn't hurt my feelings: I think it's genuinely silly and low-quality.
Look at the low quality sub-thread that your comment spawned.
That's an honest question, by the way. Since there is no barrier to entry to joining this site, there's nothing preventing masses of people arriving and crowding out the good content, which is of interest to far fewer people than politics are.
I'm more than happy to sacrifice otherwise useless karma in order to call stuff out, as the karma points serve no other purpose.
The same is true of homelessness where it is easy to discuss it in broad economic terms that can be dogmatic. But actually it is a social problem which means that it is caused by people breaking the agreed rules of the game. If a family member has no home you are supposed to let them sleep on the couch until they get back on their feet. When these basic societal rules break down we are only left with the state which is not a good replacment for family and friends.
Politicians love waving flags and "supporting the troops". But when some if these men come home and can't adjust, the flags get out away. Many turn to alcohol and start a spiral the ends on a street somewhere.
> healthcare .. which we mostly agree about
Reading this brought to mind a Reagan speech. Found it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUKC9E04Sck), complete with propaganda slides. The final example he gives goes right to it.Social democracy is the mainstream worldview at the moment in educated debate. Even the US moves in that direction. A social democrat will look at opposition to public healthcare with disbelief, "can anyone really be so mean?" Or disbelieve it altogether as you do.
Well-funded public healthcare is central to the socal democrat worldview. It's easy to argue towards at the moment, because it aligns with the momentum of public policy.
For freedom-centric people, it's uncomfortable. The person opposing it will often be inarticulate, to the point of appearing to be crazy. Their task is hard: they are not merely opposing one policy, but the whole momentum of worldview that's driving it. That's hard to do well. But beneath the rambling, there's probably a legitimate philosophical position that's not understood properly even by the speaker.
2. Even if it is political, that's not a problem. It's about an interesting intersection between video game technology and politics, and with some focus on an area with a heavy tech presence (the bay). That's relevant.