Co-Working on Vacation: A Desk in Paradise
nytimes.com
nytimes.com
<< Matej Hrescak, a product designer at Facebook, spent several weeks at the Surf Office on Gran Canaria in the Canary Islands, near one of the island’s noted surfing beaches.
“I really appreciate long uninterrupted periods of work time in order to dive deep into a particular problem, and having a destination where you’re far away from usual distractions made this possible,” he said. The high-speed Internet, fully stocked office, access to a kitchen and camaraderie of other guests at barbecues, biking trips and other planned group activities, he added, all contributed to his productivity. >>
I wouldn't be very happy if I were expected to contribute to travel or lodging while "co-working on vacation" - or if the trip used up any vacation time.
I personally have been a full-time remote worker for over 3 years now (I'm Australian but sitting in an apartment in Barcelona right now) and work with a bunch of other remote workers. We very definitely have very distinct holidays/vacation time. Our work and personal lives are just as separate as a regular in-person worker. The only difference is that when I go on vacation I don't typically have to go anywhere as I have previously relocated to my desired vacation spot.
Do you happen to know if it also works the other way round? For example, suppose I'm from the EU, can I travel to Australia as a tourist and legally telework from there?
Australian citizens require a work visa to work in Spain [1]
[1] - http://www.expatica.co.uk/es/visas-and-permits/work-permits/...
..can I travel to Australia as a tourist and legally telework from there?
No. Again you need a work visa [2]
[2] - http://www.immi.gov.au/Work/Pages/Work.aspx
These articles like to paint a rosy picture of just jumping a plane with your laptop to an exotic location. The reality if you want to be legal is different and much more difficult that that.
[Side note - the owner of that website also blogs at Nerdy Nomad about working from a laptop while travelling the world: http://www.nerdynomad.com/ ]
The practical answer is no, you don't need any kind of special visa or permit.
Generally the notion of a remote worker (a foreigner who is employed in their home country while physically being in other countries) fits very poorly with immigration/visa rules. Those things move at a glacial pace and have in no way kept up with technology (generally speaking).
The assumption underpinning pretty much everyone's work permit/visa rules is that a foreigner wanting to physically work in the local environment will be employed by locals ie they will participate in the local labor market, will take money from a local employer and be competing with locals for jobs. Alternatively you might be a visiting business person wanting to do business with a local company.
However I am Australian, I am legally an Australian resident, my employer is Australian, 100% of the financials (bank accounts, all paperwork) is in Australia and I pay tax in Australia. I have never taken a cent from a local business or individual, I am not participating in the local labor market in any way and I have no interest in doing business with local companies. I don't even have a local bank account or a local permanent address. Even if I registered to pay income tax in another country the amount would be $0 because I am not earning any money here. My work doesn't touch the local environment anymore than someone on holiday checking their email or taking a phone call from home.
So in practice, as far as the host country is concerned, I am simply a tourist. If anyone asks about my plans (which they very very rarely ever do) I am simply taking an extended trip (which is the truth) and I can show sufficient means of support (ie money in the bank).
As for the legality of this I am uncertain. I certainly don't have any ethical concerns. Were I to not do any work while visiting a country the local labor market would not be affected in any way, some locals would be deprived of additional income on which they presumably pay tax and a company back home would be deprived of an experienced worker if I was forced to not do my work while visiting other countries. No one is harmed by what I do and a lot of people derive some benefit from it.
It doesn't work the other way round. If I remember correctly, one is not allowed to telework from the USA on a tourist visum.
This is the kicker. It sounds like an absolutely fantastic opportunity...so long as you still get your normal vacation days to take as you want.
If this is meant to replace vacation time though then it's simply another contribution in the race to the work/life balance bottom.
The idea of combining work&travel is more applicable to location independent entrepreneurs and freelancers that can work from anywhere whenever they want.
If you are an employee then it's "just" like working from a coworking space remotely. But if you work on your own projects, it's really about the inspiring environment with like minded people.
It's a different twist on traveling that doesn't bind you to trying to see as much as you can in the 3 weeks you have off a year. You can really get to know a city or country if you stay there for longer. I don't really want a work life balance, I want it more intertwined so that I can do my work while living my life and co-working might just give me a chance to do so. Joel at Buffer was right about not wanting to have a deferred live plan where we work to then enjoy life.(1) I think with today's technology and forward thinking bosses and company's its possible to do great work wherever we are.
I still need to test this out and see if I am actually productive. This fall I spent a week in Vancouver and a week in Fernie and was really productive even in a new environment. I think the co-working spaces around the world will just make it that much easier for me to do longer trips. I'll have the reliable internet and quite space if needed to do good work without worrying about the wifi at coffeeshops and worrying about my gear being stolen if I get up and use the bathroom.
1. http://joel.is/why-we-go-on-international-retreats-3-times-a...
I have been remote working full-time for over 3 years while my wife and I have traveled around and do not blur my work and my vacations so I find the term "co-working vacation" puzzling.
I would often add vacations on after business trips. I was on the east coast if I go give a seminar in Colorado then I take a week vacation after than and then return. You could call that a working vacation but it is more confusing than anything. It is traveling for work, doing work, then talking a vacation, then returning home.
In the article my guess is some people might have a vacation planned and then they work out a deal to work remotely for a week. In that case wrapping work into a vacation. Which is fine if that is what someone wants to do, in my option. Take a week for vacation (perhaps in Northern California) then work for a week there, then perhaps a week in Oregon. Then back to work in Boston.
Certainly if you are working all day to call that a vacation is not the right word. That is working remotely.
It seems to me the article is really talking about short term digital nomads. And there are some interesting ideas along these lines. There are people that organize a group of software developers and designers to work in a nice location where they can be social together and have people to share work with and find collaborations. In my experience the people that join are essentially working for themselves or perhaps they and their partner go together. There really isn't a reason someone from some big company couldn't work there too. It is just usually the big companies don't take to odd arrangements like this would be.
It is not a "vacation" in that you're not taking time off work.
It has all the aspects of a travelling vacation, except during work hours.
It's remote work, not vacation. The ability to remote from various locations part or all of the year may be an interesting job perk, but if it burns vacation days you're just getting shafted.
If I'm doing remote work in Paris instead of upstate NY, I'm going to probably feel like it's at least partially a vacation as I'm going to be walking the Seine in the evenings and visiting landmarks on the weekend.
Never said there was only one way to spend your vacations.
> Many people specifically take vacation so that they can travel.
So?
> The end goal isn't necessarily time not working
The point of vacation very much to have time off. What you do with that time off is up to you (possibly up to working at an other job), but if it's not time off it's not vacation.
> it's experiencing new things in new places.
And if you can negotiate to do that without taking vacations more power to you, but again vacation is time off.
The latter part of that sentence seems like an apt description of a work/life balance to me.
I haven't seen the Eastern islands myself -- definitely next on the list. Be sure to check out the herbal selection in koh lanta! ;)
Don't forget to check out mong bar for their various "full moon parties" and Rasta baby bar which is really cosy reggae bar on Klong Nin.
If anyone has tips on where to work and/or stay on the rest of the island I'd appreciate it, might go back and remote work some later this year
But I guess it's allright if you're from Sweden and travel to Spain to enjoy the Mediterrean during the day and work in the evening (both countries are in the EU).
[1] - http://ashleyconnor.co.uk/blog/2014/09/07/the-digital-nomad-...
[2] - https://www.cambodiadaily.com/news/work-permits-now-required...
> I guess one cannot come from Asia/Europe to the USA on a
> tourist visa and legally telework from there. Other
> countries seem to have trouble with foreign teleworkers,
> too.
I'm not aware of any country taking enforcement action, or even attempting too, as long as you're not disguising employment in the host country. Who benefits, seriously? Make sure you're legally resident somewhere where all your business activities are being conducted via, and that you're paying tax there.Who wants to be the first country to say that tourists can't check their work email while on holiday?
> Wasn't there an article about a police raid on a Thai coworking
> space, a while ago?
Yes, but it came down to a misunderstanding about what was going on there. Chiang Mai police later further clarified that they're fine with tourists tapping away on their laptops:The law is really flexible in Thailand. What's unenforced today could be enforced tomorrow.
> they recently deported a few Russian travel guides in
> Pattaya
Which - even if they gave it a nod - is a completely different situation. > The law is really flexible in Thailand
Which assuming you aren't destitute, can sometimes work in your favour...If you're in Bangkok, drop me a line and let's grab a coffee.
Though I did read rumors of Thai police cracking down on a coworking center in Phuket.
Indeed, and they may well ask you if your trip is personal or related to your work. And deny you entry if it is work related and you don't have the appropriate paperwork.
For example, when entering the US for a business trip under ESTA, you will be asked at customs for the purpose of your trip. If you say "I'm here to see some clients for business, and I plan to spend all my free time answering email and catching up on work", you will still gain entry, even though you plan to PERFORM WORK IN THE USA. This is also true of almost every visa-on-arrival country.
You are also making the mistake of thinking that governments are monolithic in caring about these things.
Border control only care about if you're planning to overstay your welcome, and care about employment only as a precursor to that. The relevant labour department cares about if you're going to seek employment while you're there, but generally they're not present at the border. The tax authorities don't really care about either of those, but want to know if you'll have income arising in their jurisdiction while they're there, and their definition of "arising" will stretch to many arcane pages. These can be competing goals, and tax departments/ministries will often make sure their data can't be accessed by other departments because they want to encourage illegal immigrants to pay tax...
If you were granted a B1(tourist) visa, you almost definitely can't say to the border guard that "I'm here to see some clients for business, and I plan to spend all my free time answering email and catching up on work", because this is what the B2(business) visa is for - it doesn't allow you to work - as in, become employed - in the States, but it allows you to do everything you've just listed. It's a specific visa used for the purposes of conducting "business" - and working remotely almost certainly classifies as "business". So to re-iterate: if you've been granted a Tourist visa, but your reason to visit is conducting business, then yeah, you will be denied entry to USA.
I certainly encourage it, for people who both want to do it and whose lifestyle supports it! Caveat international work and visa laws, where prohibited, of course :-)
I think I met one of the people involved in it at a recent event in Chiang Mai, Thailand (or maybe someone just told me about it).
Shameless plug: we're doing a trip with 4 weeks each in Da Nang, Vietnam, Bali and Chiang Mai, Thailand starting February 15th and still have a few spots left. If you're thinking of trying out the workaway lifestyle, check us out (we handle the hotel + co-working space with good Wi-Fi, snacks & coffee, etc + the trip is full of hand-picked, interesting people).
More broadly about the 'burgeoning industry' - from having interviewed hundreds of applicants at this point, I don't think the growing trend is developers going totally nomadic. There's some of that, but then there's also "I want to get the @%^! out of NYC/Berlin during the winter," or "I want to take a month off and see how I could work from here". My feeling is it's a lot more fun to take a month-long workaway than a weeklong vacation, simply because you don't have to be a tourist at the speed of light (just use the weekends to explore) and you get a much more authentic experience of the place you visit while avoiding the guilt of not being productive while the rest of your team is working hard.
St. Oberholtz in Berlin is pretty horrible to work actually. It's pretty loud.
Also, us: hackerparadise.org
However, it sounds like a good idea if you want to be at a specific place for some time and don't want to be alone at the hotel or in a coffee shop. That way, you could socialize with similarly-minded people or work in a more engaging environment.
1. My boss paid for the whole thing 2. and paid for my family to go with me 3. and it didn't count toward my paid vacation days.
(In other words, no chance in hell.)
But if I'm taking off to go somewhere, you can forget it. My vacation is for me.
As for 2 - You'd have to pay me a ton of money to abandon my wife for two weeks. Paying for my wife to go with me is just cheaper for my boss. :-)
So no, neither 1 nor 2 make sense because they've got nothing to do with the article.
* Take two or so weeks of vacation.
* Work remotely (hotel, friend's house, coffee shop) for a week or so.
* Take another week or so vacation.
* Alternate working remotely and some time off.
Obviously, this requires a flexible manager, but considering mine often has a similar schedule, it's really not a problem.At no point should (1) a light be in anyone's eye while they are looking at a screen (2) window/skylight/outside be reflected on top of anyone's screen (3) major thoroughfares be located directly in front of anyone.
This requires thoughtful seating arrangements and non-crappy architecture/interior design.
I just graduated from Yale and want to develop this in the next 6 months. If anyone wants to assist, please get in touch - miles.richardson@yale.edu
I'll send you an email..
http://qasralsarab.anantara.com
Most countries get visa on arrival, and the country is a hub for two big international airlines, so getting in is easy!
I did it myself with 3 other guys back in 07-08 in Fernie, Canada, and it was awesome - but also a lot of work to get set up across the world before we arrived.
It's been surprisingly great, though certainly pricier (even with the deal we got) than doing an equivalent attempt with Surfing in SE Asia. I also don't think I'd do it for more than a couple of weeks. Let me know if you're curious about a writeup and I'll put one together.
Generally we aim to make Coworking Camp affordable for early stage startup founders. The cost to attend consists of different components: 1) You need a Coworking Camp ticket. It ranges from €250 (1 week) to €650 (6 weeks). There are ealry bird discounts, so make sure to signup to our newsletter. Also there are volunteer opportunities available that get you a free ticket.
2) We haven't finalized the hotel for Tunisia yet, but expect about €30 per night for a single room with all inclusive food/drinks. Double rooms will be slightly cheaper and we are trying to also negotiate an early booking discount.
3) There are cheap flights around €200 to Tunisia from nearly all major European airports. For the cheapest option look for tourist charter flights leaving on weekends. It is also possible to fly to Tunis and then take a cheap bus or train to the hotel. More info once we decided about the hotel.
So the total for the ticket, the hotel and the flight should about €650 (1 week) to €2100 (6 weeks). If you share rooms, volunteer or book early the cost could go down.
($1 is a little less than 1€)