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> Suppose that Verizon did use "Title II money" (i.e. revenues from rate increases on wireline subscribers) to fund FiOS deployment. That may very well not be kosher according to the rules

The article doesn't seem to be based on any argument he makes that the use of money is not "kosher according to the rules", instead it is about his argument that Verizon failing to mention that their broadband network is funded that way is an omission of a relevant fact which results in their other statements in their filings in the Open Internet proceedings being misleading, in violation of a specific legal prohibition on such material omissions that result in material filed with the FCC being incorrect or misleading.

Its not a call for investigation of misuse of funds, its a call for investigation of perjury.

> Should we launch a federal investigation to see if Apple subsidized iPhone development by increasing Mac prices?

If Apple makes a filing under penalty of perjury in which they claim they did not, or omit the fact that they did when there is evidence that they did, and that omission is such that it results in other claims they made misleading, and there are specific laws governing the kind of filing they made which prohibit such omissions, sure.

Applying Kushnick logic to another industry: if Apple raises prices on Macs and uses that cash to bankroll iPhone development, well that's something that requires a federal investigation.

This isn't a good analogy -- if Apple had been granted use of public goods (rights-of-way, airwaves, and local/regional monopolies on service) in exchange for guarantees of service, raising their prices on such a service to fund another segment of the company would absolutely require investigation.

Verizon paid for its wireless spectrum, it lost its local monopolies pursuant to the 1996 deregulation, and in most places, it pays the local power company for access to utility poles. E.g. here in Baltimore, it's BGE that owns the poles, not Verizon.

I've been part of an ISP startup -- go find out what happens if you try to pay the local power company for access to utility poles. A de facto monopoly is still a monopoly.

You can't "purchase" a public good like a segment of the wireless spectrum and do with it whatever you please. Exclusive access to that segment can be granted to you in exchange for money by the government, and it comes with many conditions.

> You can't "purchase" a public good

Sure you can. Indeed, one of the dominant theories of contemporary economics is that market failures in public goods should be handled by turning them into property rights and privatizing them.

Take my statement as shorthand for "I don't believe that it's possible to purchase a public good and the economic theory that public goods should be privatized is legitimate only insofar as it would lead to desirable revolution". I'm happy to disagree, though -- it's not exactly a settled question and I doubt either of us are going to convince the other during this conversation.

Dominant among whom? People who want to gut public institutions and "The Commons" and carve up the spoils like post-Soviet kleptocrats for their own personal gain?

There is a large population of people (including many economists) who DON'T subscribe to your supposedly "dominant" theory.

> it pays the local power company for access to utility poles.

That power company is required to permit pole attachment for telecommunications (but not necessarily broadband internet service) companies, according to Title II.

>Verizon raising rates on its own customers to pay for its fiber network is some sort of questionable act.

No, his point is that using Title II status to legally enforce rate increases under the guise of telephone upgrades and then using that money to invest in a completely different business (cable and broadband) is a questionable act

And further, to take advantage of this status as Title II to increase capital investment and then turn around and claim that Title II decreases capital investment is glaringly hypocritical.

I do agree, however, that Ars is on an anti-telco hunt these days.

>Ars paints telecom service as this cash cow, but the fact of the matter is that nobody in the U.S. is making money on fiber on deployments of any substantial scale.

This is a really misleading sentence. I agree that fiber deployments arent a big money generating enterprise, is any capital investment? They make money off of subscribers, not capital investment and they certainly are raking in plenty of cash doing so (over 120 billion revenue in 2013 for verizon)

edit: added the phrase 'questionable act'

> And further, to take advantage of this status as Title II to increase capital investment and then turn around and claim that Title II decreases capital investment is glaringly hypocritical.

The problem with the argument is the phrase "take advantage of this status as Title II." The default state of affairs is that a company does not need a reason to raise its prices. Title II forces rate regulation. So Verizon didn't "take advantage of Title II" to raise rates. It raised rates despite Title II. Doing that is not at all hypocritical against the argument that Title II will decrease capital investment. Indeed, it's entirely consistent with that argument. Investors are less likely to throw $23 billion into building a fiber network if they have to work within a regulatory regime where they need permission to raise prices to fund upgrades.

When I said take advantage of Title II i was referring more to the massive amounts of money solicited from state governments supposedly for telephone infrastructure upgrades or large network buildouts, as well as rights to government property under Title II.[1][2]

from the article:

>every fiber optic wire appears to be Title II." That includes fiber lines used to deliver home Internet service and the fiber lines that feed into Verizon Wireless' cell towers,

>Verizon provides Title II-regulated phone service over both copper and fiber, but the fiber network also supports FiOS Internet, TV, and the largely unregulated Digital Voice service. Despite its claims about Title II harming broadband providers, Verizon used its common carrier status to gain perks that helped build the fiber network.

You can't say capital investment is harder under Title II, then use your Title II branch of your company to gain investment for buildouts of your non-Title II business. That is directly hypocritical. If it were true, you would be seeing their fiber rollout financed without the guise of their Title II upgrades, by private investment rather than public.

[1]http://www.njspotlight.com/stories/14/03/26/state-s-deal-wit... [2]http://www.dslreports.com/shownews/30544

edit: formatting

> i was referring more to the massive amounts of money solicited from state governments supposedly for telephone infrastructure upgrades

As I have described before, there never was any "massive amounts of money" paid by state governments. What Kushnick calls "subsidies" was just agreements that allowed the phone companies to increase their prices. To Kushnick, that's a "perk."

The advantages aren't only in the form of agreed upon rate increases - this includes tax incentives/credits, real estate, and cash payments.

[1]https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20131012/02124724852/decad... [2]http://www.nyc.gov/html/doitt/downloads/pdf/verizon_nyc_fran...

No. What I call 'tax' perk has multiple layers. First, around the original fiber optic deployment time, Verizon et al took one-time tax deductions under something called FASB71 -- of-$25 billion dollars, which was 2-3 billion per bell company (like Bell Atlantic or Ameritech)

Second, they were able to 'accelerate' depreciation, meaning write off the networks faster, regardless of the life of the network product, such as the copper or fiber wires.

Depreciation, in this case, lowers the taxes paid as it is an expense, but in the old days, it was part of the calculations of the costs to offer service, so more expenses would mean -- oh, we're losing money, give us more rate increases.

I don't have problems with accelerated depreciation -- if they actually were doing what they said which was replacing the aging copper utility wires with fiber optics -- but in most of these cases, they didn't replace it but took the deductions and got the benefits.

Go into an audit with the IRS and tell them you wrote off equipment that you didn't buy or that you didn't replace-- see how that works for you.

Anti-telco hunt? They're on a pro-consumer hunt, and we should be thanking them for it. If the incumbent's have their way we'll be stuck paying per MB for ALL data while the rest of the world laughs away.

It was the last generation of "pro-consumer" types that got us into the current mess to begin with. Because at the end of the day, Verizon and AT&T may not like Title II, but they have the legal horsepower to deal with it. It's the smaller potential competitors who can't deal with the extra taxes to fund rural deployment, or having to build out to neighborhoods too poor to subscribe to fiber service, or having to petition rate authorities to set their prices.

> smaller potential competitors who can't deal with

Ok, you've got my attention

> extra taxes to fund rural deployment

Well, no, the small guys don't have extra (federal) taxes imposed on them, unless they're interstate.

"Every telecommunications carrier that provides interstate telecommunications services shall contribute, on an equitable and nondiscriminatory basis, to the specific, predictable, and sufficient mechanisms established by the Commission to preserve and advance universal service." S.254(d)

On the other hand, even if they are interstate,

"The Commission may exempt a carrier or class of carriers from this requirement if the carrier's telecommunications activities are limited to such an extent that the level of such carrier's contribution to the preservation and advancement of universal service would be de minimis." S.254(d) continued

They may, however, have extra (state) taxes imposed on them:

"Every telecommunications carrier that provides intrastate telecommunications services shall contribute, on an equitable and nondiscriminatory basis, in a manner determined by the State to the preservation and advancement of universal service in that State." S.254(f)

But that same section limits what kind of additional regulations states can impose:

"A State may adopt regulations to provide for additional definitions and standards to preserve and advance universal service within that State only to the extent that such regulations adopt additional specific, predictable, and sufficient mechanisms to support such definitions or standards that do not rely on or burden Federal universal service support mechanisms."

> having to build out to neighborhoods too poor to subscribe to fiber service

Well, yes.

That's kind of what the universal service fund is _for_.

> having to petition rate authorities to set their prices.

That's what that whole forebearance thing is about. Nobody wants to put that kind of rate control on ISPs. (I'd be all for putting that kind of rate control on backbone-tier ISPs, though)

I don't get your point. Are you saying that small carriers should be exempt from a tax big carriers have to pay? And that this solution is better than just getting rid of the stupid tax in the first place?

> That's kind of what the universal service fund is _for_.

No, USF is mostly for rural areas. I'm talking about build-out requirements in franchise agreements, which makes building in poor neighborhoods a prerequisite for building anywhere in the city. We'd see a lot more small fiber companies if they were allowed to operate only in expensive neighborhoods where they could sell a premium service at a premium price.

> I'm talking about build-out requirements in franchise agreements

Which section of Title II defines that?

Who said it was in title II? I said it was the result of well-meaning "pro-consumer" types who have created a thicket of requirements that makes going into the telecom business highly undesirable.

See, e.g., Google's blanket rejection of such requirements as a pre-condition for deploying Google Fiber.

I do agree, however, that Ars is on an anti-telco hunt these days.

Do they not have it coming? Consumer satisfaction with telecom companies, across the board, is horrible. Nobody likes their phone company or their ISP in the USA, they're a company that is dealt with out of necessity, and is usually (rightly) seen as operating in bad faith.

The behavior of the largest telcos are extremely dubious if not outright evil. (Examples: Comcast, Time Warner..)

They're not quite mustache-stroking Saturday morning cartoon villains, but dammit, they're trying!

> Nobody likes their phone company or their ISP in the USA

I do. Sonic.net Fusion ADSL2+ resold by Omsoft. 14M/1M for $50/mo, bonus copper POTS included with free nationwide calling (nice emergency backup). Purportedly you can bond two lines for twice the speed, and/or Annex M for 5M/3M instead, but I haven't had the need.

No data caps - I've had many months >1TB. And this kind of attitude, too: http://www.jwz.org/blog/2012/06/sonic-net-we-delete-user-log...

The few times I've called with a problem, Omsoft has been ahead of me in diagnosing, which is actually a bit unnerving because with every other "customer service" these days, it's your job to figure out the problem and then additionally figure out how to convince them to fix it.

They can do all this because they're able to obtain unbundled copper from AT&T, as per 1996 telcom deregulation. The real problem with this larger debate is that we're having it after the fact. The US infrastructure is still based around DSL, yet most people thought it was a good idea to jump ship to monopoly cable companies for higher advertised speeds. Of course once you're hooked into a cable company contract, traffic caps and engineering congestion leave you worse off than DSL.

If you're in a decently sized metropolitan area and want to actually vote with your wallet (and lower your stress level), check to see if you have any competitive DSL options left. Even if it's just a business-oriented connection from Megapath (Speakeasy), wouldn't you rather give your money to people who appreciate you?

You again. Maybe you should actually read the article instead of your usual knee jerk reaction, which is always wrong.

The article is about Verizon making false and misleading statements to the FCC about its use of “Title II”, where it has told the FCC, the courts and the public that if the companies are ‘reclassified’ as title II in the net neutrality proceeding it would harm investment. And we nailed them, showing that their entire fiber to the premises networks are already Title II, and we are using Verizon’s own documents, which directly contradict what they told the FCC. -- And it's not legal to lie to the FCC.

Then you rant about something-- “any price increase beyond that rate is a "subsidy" from the public to the carrier.”

One day you should actually read what I wrote. Starting in the 1990’s, Verizon got regulators to change the laws to charge customers to fund fiber optic deployments – and instead now-Verizon pocketed the money and didn’t build the networks. But you don’t mind being ripped off or that from 1993-2005 there were no build outs of networks which we paid for. And this continued with FiOS.

Going back to the article, not only are Verizon’s networks Title II but they did this to charge customers for these networks-- as Verizon claimed it was building out FiOS as part of the state utility telecommunications networks. As we showed, using Title II, Verizon got the State to charge regular phone customers rate increases – well, it ain’t legal to charge phone customers for say, the roll out of a cable service. Worse, Verizon stopped the FiOS deployments so in NY state, 80% of the state municipalities, and their customers, paid for network upgrades that they’ll never get – including low income families, seniors—people who weren’t supposed to be charged.

Then you claim that somehow we should investigate Apple "if they subsidized iPhone development by increasing Mac prices?"

Wha? Verizon controls essentially facilities and is still a utility network and gets the ‘rights of way’ based on a franchise. Apple is a free market company that doesn’t control any wired or wireless facilities and I can go and get any phone I want.

But you can’t tell the difference nor did you even bother to read the story.

I read your petition. I don't think there's anything perjurious about taking advantage of the regulatory framework you're stuck with while arguing that it's a bad regulatory framework and shouldn't be expanded.

> One day you should actually read what I wrote. Starting in the 1990’s, Verizon got regulators to change the laws to charge customers to fund fiber optic deployments – and instead now-Verizon pocketed the money and didn’t build the networks.

I've almost certainly read more of your organization's publications than 99% of the people on HN reflexively upvoting this story because it fits with their biases and worldview.

I'll concede that you may be right about some of the stuff you bury "below the fold" (e.g. accelerated depreciation), only because I don't have the energy to really dig into those numbers. But the headline numbers, based on the premise that regulators should be setting rates in the first place, that's nonsense. The government shouldn't be in the business telling private companies what prices they can charge.

Applying Kushnick logic to another industry: if Apple raises prices on Macs and uses that cash to bankroll iPhone development, well that's something that requires a federal investigation.

Yes, if Apple claimed in an SEC filing that they hadn't raised prices on Macs to fund iPhone development and it turns out they had, I'm sure they'd let it slide the way they always do. It's not like the SEC filed criminal charges or anything when they found out Apple had mixed up a few stock option dates. Oh, wait: http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2007/2007-70.htm