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Comment by AndrewKemendo | Hacker News Reader

This is filled with gems that old farts like me (I'm 30) don't have any idea about.

If I don’t get any likes on my Instagram photo or Facebook post within 15 minutes you can sure bet I'll delete it.

Super interesting take - it's as though they are posting not to show people stuff but to get people's approval for what they are posting. Simple but critically different in my opinion.

Facebook is often used by us mainly for its group functionality.

Got it, so make a better group service and bring everyone to that.

One big thing I took away is that, assuming this is representative of the demographic, they seem to not mind using multiple applications for communications. So there really is the ability to pretty narrowly specialize with functions - something I think the older generation does backwards; we want to consolidate and make services a "one stop shop."

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it's as though they are posting not to show people stuff but to get people's approval for what they are posting

Yes that's what lives pretty strong in that generation - and on social media in general, I have the impression. For some that goes really far, maybe too far, and people become unhappy or even depressed if they are not seen/approved by others.

Which is like in real life, but also at the same time not quite: in real life conversations etc you show a lot of yourself because it's impossible to hide. Facial expressions, body language, meeting pople early in the morning when you're not at your best, on one of those days where the whole world is against you, and so on. In virtual life however you try to make sure that side of you doesn't show. You could call it a lie. I'm not sure if that is good, bad or neither.

There's also the awareness of the awareness : You can easily sneak into a conversation between a much older or more mature generation, to gain a different perspective on yourself. Where these conversations were relatively hidden in select circles in the past (the conversations concerning the nuances of socialization) they are commonplace now. Everyone is stuck in their own spiral of self analysis, and they are all aware that they are creating and maintaining this spiral of self analysis. In the past, we might not have been so hyper aware of the act of seeking positive affirmations and social acceptance, although humans as social animals might have instinctively/intuitively/naturally sought it out.

However, I am sure there is some philosopher 200 or 100 years ago that has noticed the same phenomena with a different generational shift of technological and emotive labeling.

I'm 19 years old, and I certainly post for approval. Though at this point, I don't really post anything but humorous anecdotes or one-liners. In the back of my mind I'm telling myself I'm one step closer to becoming a comedian.

But I also leave up posts that don't get as many likes or comments. If I'm posting something, it's because I've spent time working on the material. I think it's good regardless. But I do know acquaintances who will delete comments they don't like and have gone to post a comment on a post only to get a "post no longer exists" message. This is only from experience on Facebook, I don't really tweet that often anymore.

I think that's more a quality of young people, not just "this generation."

I was probably like that once, even though I think I wasn't. I remember everyone around me being concerned with being "liked."

More importantly, Mean Girls and Fast Times at Ridgemont High and Wonder Years all seem that way.

Who know with kids, they make no sense in any generation. :)

Spot on. I've since forgotten about this, but at that age I do remember caring way too much about being liked and what others thought.

It was not that I was so vain - it just seemed like a reality to me. Reality seemed to be, you have to be cool like these guys / that guy / whoever or else you will never have a girlfriend and never have sex and die alone.

In hindsight, that's stupid, idiotic even. But back then that was my life. And it's still like that for teens now. Explains why I can talk to a teen and they seem like perfectly reasonable people, except 10 minutes later they go off and do something unimaginably stupid.

Maybe it's a sort of random mutation of our social genetic makeup - teens must do stupid, senseless stuff, and some, randomly, discover something great (while lots of others just embarrass or injure themselves).

> Yes that's what lives pretty strong in that generation

That's typical teenager behaviour. To the point that it's stereotipical.

Well, I'm almost 40, and I similarly feel the inherent disappointment when one of my posts is not liked by my peers. Not achieving a certain number of likes feels like social disapproval, or maybe misunderstanding.

Of course, I grew up with punk rock music, so when that happens, I just say F them and move on with my next un-liked post. (Then, the game is to see how many old friends I can repel)

First of all you have to understand that your post will be shown to very few people initially, and if it doesn't get any likes from these few people - let's say it's 10 - immediately, then it won't be shown to anyone else. One reason the newsfeed sucks, and I believe it's the reason I never see posts from the vast majority of my friends.

And then, to me, the quality of the likes matter.

I recently posted 3 different links that were all about stuff very close to my heart - things I really care about. One was a 40 minute video. It got one like, but that like was from my father - I'd trade that for 100 friends likes. One was an article I loved; it got one like, but the guy loved it so much he shared it. And this is something - if I have reached one person's heart, it's a huge success. Another one, forget what that was, but it got likes from my brother and another person close to me.

If a post gets no likes, yeah, first of all, fuck them, and secondly only 10 people saw it thanks to Facebook's clever constant optimization algorithm so F Facebook, too.

Let's be honest, I have 300 friends, the likelihood that all 300 saw a post of mine and did NOT like it is pretty much zero. The only way I can get a post with no likes is if it was only shown to a small percentage of my friends. (or if I posted total crap but I'm not, I swear ;) )

The endless attention-whoring and KIRF posturing invading my newsfeed constantly is why I gave up on social media. I'm much more at ease without it.

I had to search for the meaning of the acronym, figured I'd post it here for anyone else in the same boat:

Keeping it Real Fake

I'm older than you and I definitely don't want a one stop shop.

Currently I use Facebook to see photos of my extended family, LinkedIn for work & sales, Instagram to keep up with my cooler friends, Twitter to see trending news, StockTwits to see investing ideas...

To me this is the future of social networking: many networks, each with a specialized purpose.

Would you use a personal aggregator that combined feeds from all those networks into one?

No way. :)

I use these services in different contexts.

When I'm relaxing and looking at Instagram, the last thing I want is a business article from LinkedIn or a political diatribe from Facebook.

In fact my primary problem with Facebook is that it tries to be everything to everyone.

Yes, Facebook tries to be everything to everyone. It kinda has to, more or less, for the sheer number of users.

Nilay Patel recently argued that Facebook is the new AOL, it's the portal of the 2010s. I think that is an apt description. I am using it yet also kind of just pining to drop it.

I also use it for groups and messaging. Somehow, Facebook groups are great. They're super simple, and they just work. The newsfeed on the other hand is completely broken.

Yes, I would as long as it's a natural river in chronological order.

I am the aggregator.

And I like it when it's tedious.

Not OP, but no. I would never use an aggregator. I really don't want to view any of those services at the same time. They are all very different and require viewing at different times/different states of mind.

Not saying this is what people would want, but what if the aggregator shaped itself depending on what the person was doing, where they were, time of day, etc?

I'm older than you and I definitely don't want a one stop shop.

You might not want one but "our generation" has been building them for some time. It's even Peter Thiel's mantra.

Facebook is also great for events. You can invite people you know even if you don't have their other contact info.

I think you might struggle to 'bring everyone over' to a better group service. Part of the draw of facebook is that is everyone is already 'over'.

I don't know anyone working in tech that uses facebook. That would be like being an obese fitness instructor, your actions and your knowledge would be at constant conflict. Only explanation would be that these people are either lying or insane (psycho-/sociopath).

... what. Well, I'm in tech, and I use it. Same with my friends and coworkers. I hope you're not suggesting we're all sociopaths.

While I agree that facebook is frequently used for events, I'd actually argue that it's horrible for events, there's just no other option.

For any given event, about 2/3 of the people will never respond to the invite, of the people who did respond it's a complete tossup who will show up, the stupid "maybe" answer which is essentially the same as not responding at all because it means "almost definitely not, but I technically could show up since I marked maybe". People often invite all their friends which includes everyone they have ever met, people that don't even live in the area or that they are close with anymore. Facebook gives you no intelligence whatsoever on the events, like "here are people you always invite" or "here are people you always invite but who never respond" etc, which would be easy to show and very helpful. There is no way to update people coming to the event on changes or anything other than posting on the event's wall, which most people will not be notified of unless they check facebook all the time, etc. etc. I could go on for so long about how shitty facebook events are, and it truly makes me sad, because really the purpose of these events is just to meet up with and have fun with friends, but the process is so frustrating I feel like it actually prevents this from happening in a lot of cases.

On that note, I am also very passively plotting out working on a better version, so if anyone is reading this and is also frustrated by facebook's crap events feel free to get in touch, hah.

> On that note, I am also very passively plotting out working on a better version, so if anyone is reading this and is also frustrated by facebook's crap events feel free to get in touch, hah.

So am I.

Drop a mail: miguelrochefort@gmail.com

Facebook is not popular for groups because it does it so well, it's used for grouping because you can safely assume that 98% of your classmates have a Facebook account, know hoe to use it and even check it occasionally.

>> If I don’t get any likes on my Instagram photo or Facebook post within 15 minutes you can sure bet I'll delete it.

> Super interesting take - it's as though they are posting not to show people stuff but to

Just an idea: This is a single individual; basically anecdata. I have a sister who is 44 years old and who does the same thing and has been doing it as long as she's been on the internet (she started by blogging and has deleted hundreds of posts in the same way, in addition to her current FB, Instagram, etc. posts). I do wonder if this could be reduced to psychological typology or self-image though.

> "it's as though they are posting not to show people stuff but to get people's approval for what they are posting"

Which is generally how the average westerner has behaved for generations. They don't acquire and desire clothes, music, books, movies, ideas, hair-styles and gadgets solely based on best personal fit. They acquire and desire based -- very heavily -- on the opinions of those tribes they admire.

(And while teenagers and young-adults are far more susceptible to this sort of "fashion", older folks are far from immune to it.)

I'm 40. Shocking I know. But to all those who think this is just ancient (the younger they are the older that seems) I have only one response: There's nothing you can do to avoid the same fate! Except a premature death, but that would be even worse, right? Hahaha. Anyway.

I have a 21 year old friend, this is how she's using Facebook:

- Accept all friends requests. There are lots because she's cute. - Go through the feed relatively often, liking every single post. - Post stuff, see who likes it. Those friends who don't like her posts are unfriended.

Needless to say, she gets a lot of likes on her posts. It's absurd to do this, of course, but at the same time it's just taking what normal people do, and taking it to its logical extreme.

I am guessing if the Facebook engineers responsible for optimizing the news feed saw this they'd have a heart attack.

>Got it, so make a better group service and bring everyone to that.

You are going to need significant value-add to convince people to bootstrap their identities and social graph all over again. Snapchat did it by piggybacking on "people who have each other's phone numbers." Tumblr did it by not doing it - the social network is deliberately separate, and you have to be much closer to someone for them to tell you their Tumblr URL.

I will never use your service if I have to sign up, confirm my email address, add friends, convince them to sign up and actually check it, etc. Decentralization is the surest way to destroy user experience. Facebook already knows me and everyone I know in real life. Why would I not just use it?

Because it's hard to integrate facebook authorization with a new group app, right?

I will never use your service if I have to sign up, confirm my email address, add friends, convince them to sign up and actually check it

Isn't this exactly what snapchat did though - except with a phone number instead of email?

I think Whatsapp has emerged as the better group service that everyone is using. It's a little too easily brushed aside in this article.

I disagree, none of my friends use WhatsApp and I've never heard them mention it. It's all about group texts or FB chat groups. (I am 23)

WhatsApp I only use for when friends/family are out of the country. GroupMe gets used for any persistent groups, such as "roommates" (I am 22)

GroupMe was awesome when group SMS was shit but it's gotten much better and since everyone is one FB chat that's used more in my circle of friends. I have a few GroupMe conversations but a number have moved to FB Chat and the ones left are just a few holdouts.

There was a thread posted here about the new Nokia215. SeverL people mentioned the importance of WhatsApp.

Facebook really should create a whatsapp for System 30+ -- they would dominate that market.

Whatsapp is really important in some markets. Just because you don't know anyone using it doesn't make that less true.

(Also, I use it, so now you do know someone using it!)

Please forgive me, I'm not saying no one used WhatsApp but that people in my age group, with similar socioeconomic status, that I regularly hang out with and talk to don't use it. WhatsApp is great for overseas talk and its ability to run on literally any phone but the vast majority of my friends have iPhones and the ones that don't have higher-end android phones so WhatsApp was never the "only" option for us and we gravitated to other networks.

Also understand that I am FULLY aware that I do not represent my age group nor do I represent even the "average" "young" person. I represent a small demographic but I wanted to give my views from that position.

A phone like the Nokia 215 is made for non-Western, non-first world audiences. With those audiences, WhatsApp is a bit deal. When it comes to US or other Western college campuses, maybe not so much.

I'm just saying, just because people with dumbphones or feature phones are clamoring for WhatsApp doesn't mean that people with smartphones care at all about the service.

Here in europe it is widely used. There might be some difference between what americans use and what europeans use. (She says that kind of in the article)

Actually the author's experience perfectly mirrors mine. International students I meet swear by it; nationals fiddle with it briefly and delete it.

Whatsapp is the primary messaging app for many of my teenage cousins. Most have it as the default message app and is a permanent fixture on their phone home screens and rarely use SMS anymore.

I recommend watching this film: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/generation-like/. It's an updated version of this equally awesome film: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/cool/.

Posting, liking, and commenting are pretty much the only means of interaction on Facebook. (Besides messages, but that's a different thing.) And since there's no "dislike" button, if you get no likes, then you don't know if people really hated it, or thought you were weird for posting it. Removing it is the easiest way to make sure you're not alienating your friends.

Kinda exactly like HN works, very addictive!

I think this type of thinking and the Facebook comments show a larger problem with teens, in that people are posting crap on Facebook more for external validation from everyone to tell themselves they are cool/funny/popular/in the know etc.

I'm 35 and don't post what I'm doing or showing off who I'm with every 30 minutes, and if I occasionally post something and no one comments on it, I don't care and I sure don't delete it out of some kind of embarrassment.

Going to concerts now or looking around in bars everyone is more concerned with telling everyone electronically how cool they are more than anything else and this is the real problem.

Great, another over-30 holding forth on what the "real problem" with teens is. It's really not that different from how people act in person. If you say something in a group conversation and get no reaction, maybe change the subject.

Great, but I'm not so embarrassed and afraid of what others think that I need to remove it from the world less I become embarrassed (and thus less cool).

Young people now are way too concerned at impressing others and that is nothing new, but now they are able to do it 24/7 and it is an issue. They are not living their lives but have their phones shoved in their face every second vs actually interacting with others.

I am enjoying a few resturants etc enforcing a no phone policy, I wish it would become more prevalent in places where you are supposed to socially interact, with actual, real people in front of you.

Yes change the subject. That's "leaving the post up"

If instead you immediately demand that everyone forget that you ever mentioned an uncool or not intensely popular thing, that seems more in line with "deleting the comment"

Of course, I'm over 30 so what do I know?

You don't have to make demands, people naturally forget little things said in conversations. Facebook remembers verbatim, in a searchable format. It even pushes your post into other people's "timelines" so you don't know who sees it or when. It's no wonder people get skittish, when Facebook gives them so little control over their content.

No it's not. That's bringing even attention to it. You example is more similar to deleting an unliked post, and then posting "Everyone please forget my last post. Just pretend it never happened."

Deleting a post from Facebook/Instagram/etc doesn't delete it from the memory of the people who did see it. It just prevents more people from seeing it, or those people from seeing it again. So it's almost exactly like making an unpopular statement in conversation, and then abruptly changing the subject.

It's not necessarily approval, but trying to start a conversation. If something gets no response after a while, it means nobody wants to talk about it so you might as well delete it.

Otherwise it feels like talking to a wall.

> Otherwise it feels like talking to a wall.

And if you do want to do that, then don't worry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_walls is here to help.

Have you seen Google Plus lately? They just can't call it Google Groups because, well, Google Groups.

https://plus.google.com/communities

"but to get people's approval for what they are posting"

The business reason for multi-billion dollar social media companies is for brands and celebrities to get "likes". The only social sites that don't operate that way, are one dude in his basement sites, not billion dollar sites, where all the useful content is anyway.

Anyway, that business reason is going to rub off on all the participants. IBM isn't going to post everything, they're going to post likable stuff. No surprise IBMs followers have similar habits.

The "liking" feature on FB/Instagram is one of the clearest manifestations of the vanity-seeking behavior that all humans possess.

Here's my longer form take on it: http://www.techdisruptive.com/2014/05/01/vanity-sells/

Hah, you just want to get people to click that link to your article so you can get views and feel good about yourself.

[Cue reply to me saying I'm only replying so that I can see other people pay attention to me and reply to my comment.]

You get an upvote good sir!

Most infuriating thing about Facebook is that the group admin tools are just really, really shit. And it's very difficult to admin an active or, God forbid, controversial group without just being a fascist about it. I'm not saying that increasing social drama to increase page views was a design goal, but it does seem to be the result.

> so make a better group service and bring everyone to that.

Email? Works like a charm for my friends, and no vendor lock-in.

These are mostly phone apps, so to launch the app that wants their attention, they just click the notification. Doesn't matter much at all which app, or where the icon is on their screen, since it's just the one place that launches everything.

> it's as though they are posting not to show people stuff but to get people's approval for what they are posting.

I don't think it's as simple as "please like me/please approve of this" but there's also a component of "Oh, you don't like this -- I won't bother anyone else with it, sorry about that!"

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