What is good running technique? | Hacker News Reader

What is good running technique?

runningtechniquebook.com

120 pointsjgrodziski55 comments

So, the best tip I've heard, and what I tell patients who want to minimize who want to minimize injuries, is to pretend like you're running on ice or glass. Try and focus on absorbing the impact of each step and try to distribute your weight evenly so as not to 'break the glass'. I think I first heard it through a TED talk or something, I'll see if I can't dig it up.

Excellent video on natural running form: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zSIDRHUWlVo

I ran track in College (1976-1978) an my coach back then taught me correct form. I run at least 5 miles almost every day ever since and have never had a running related injury. I attribute this to learning correct running form early on. If you run more than 3 miles and have any pain at all you are probably doing it wrong.

Where do you run ? Indoors or outdoors?

Both, the gym I belong to has an indoor track which comes in handy but outdoors is more fun of course.

what is "correct form"? and where is all the research demonstrating its success at preventing injury?

My case is anecdotal for sure, but I do feel that once I learned the right form it became much easier and I have really enjoyed running because of that I think.

You can Google "proper running form" and get a ton of resources. I do think learning good form at a younger age helps, perhaps in a similar way that learning a second language is easier.

My running form improved greatly, and quickly, when I ran barefoot (or wear 5 finger shoes). Doesn't have to be far, could be a few hundred meters as a part of a warmup. If you're overstriding, slamming your forefeet or heels, it'll hurt. When it stops hurting, you're running with good form.

This is the best video I have seen on natura running form: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zSIDRHUWlVo

Also, The creator of the pose running method recently released a new book that details proper running form step by step with specific exercises and instruction:

The Running Revolution: How to Run Faster, Farther, and Injury-Free--for Life https://www.amazon.com/dp/014312319X/ref=cm_sw_r_awd_ZXiOub1...

'Correct' is different for each body type. I started running one day a week barefoot (3-6 miles along the beach) and this greatly strengthened my ankles and improved my running form. I think good form comes naturally when running barefoot. I still wear shoes for longer road runs but I now wear zero-drop shoes from Altra with good results. A bit of background - I started running 3 years ago and have built up to running two full marathons (LA and Chicago), lost 40lbs along the way and now running is like a meditation for me 4 mornings per week.

If you run the same mileage every day every week every year well yeah then you are very unlikely to get injured.

But that tells us nothing.

I run at least 5 miles, sometimes 6, 7 8 etc. also varying terrain, indoor, outdoor and so on.

Which, still, doesn't tell us anything. Injury occurrs when you consistently increase your weekly mileage by a considerable margin. Why would you expect injury if you have been running more or less the same every week for years?

>Injury occurrs when you consistently increase your weekly mileage by a considerable margin.

what makes you say that? Probably you just never got any issues yourself and thus applying it to everybody else's situation.

I was running the same route for 13 years and at the age of 42 my knees and feet started to give pain during and aftre running - that made me interested in proper form and, yep, surprise, i was doing it wrong.

I doubt that 3 miles figure apples to an overweight couch potato

POSE method is pretty good for injury avoidance - http://birthdayshoes.com/introduction-to-the-pose-method-of-...

Not necessarily. It has been found that radically changing your running technique quickly alters where the majority of the load on your skeleton occurs, which may lead to injury: http://sportsscientists.com/2007/10/pose-running-reduces-run...

The same blog has a whole series of posts on running technique, much of its opinions supported by the scientific studies: http://sportsscientists.com/running/running-physiology/runni...

> http://sportsscientists.com/running/running-physiology/runni...

Read this. There's a ridiculous amount of pseudo-science, superstition, and hucksterism around running technique. Without becoming a quack myself, all I can say is "be patient and don't make any sudden changes."

For anyone interested in "good form running", what it means for the human body and the benefits that are associated with it, I wholeheartedly suggest reading up on Daniel Lieberman (he has videos on YouTube about it). His studies about foot strike and gait especially are mind-opening and can really help you achieve good result and avoid some of the running-related injuries.

The book chapter is about form for running fast, but most of the comments are about form for training. In terms of injury prevention, I'd agree that the latter is important, but the book chapter doesn't have a lot to do with this. All the pictures are of people running better than 5 minutes/mile, with some probably running faster than 4 min/mile. But almost all running injuries are the cumulative effect of lots of slower miles, run at 6, 7, or 8 minutes/mil, or even slower (though the difference between 6 min/mile and 8 min/mile is pretty significant). Good form at those speeds is markedly different.

For fun, try to find footage of Kenny Moore running. Looks absurd, so knock kneed, but terrifically fast in his day.

Perhaps more interesting for most is this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVH2qOwZd18#t=373 showing an elite runner running at a reasonable pace (perhaps 7:30 - 8:00 minutes/mile), with some commentary.

Is an elliptical a good alternative to running?

It depends on your goals, and what level of fitness you have today.

It is easier on your joints, and people with limited fitness levels or physical capacities can often push themselves harder on an elliptical than they could walking or running. I was able to work on an elliptical even when I had a hip that was in such bad shape that it needed rebuilt, and started back on an elliptical after my surgery.

On the other hand, the exact things that make it good for some people makes them less suitable for people who are already athletic. They are easier on you, will not push your heart rate as high, and take less muscular strength. If you are really trying to reach your peak athletic performance, elliptical training might not be enough for you.

If you can stand doing your exercise exclusively on some indoors machine such as the elliptical, then sure. Get that heartrate up.

But I'm afraid the population of people who can do that is rather small. Don't set yourself up for failure, do something you enjoy and better yet, join a group.

If you really want to take your elliptical outdoors there's always the ElliptiGo: http://www.elliptigo.com/ I've seen a surprising number of these around Boulder CO.

I recently developed 'IT band Syndrome' which made me say goodbye to boring/injury prone running and switch to swimming. Best decision ever. Fuck running.

I don't know of single runner who hasn't suffered some kind of injury. Again fuck running.

I used to swim a lot until I started developing ear and nose infections from the wet environment. Now, if I swim more than once a week I get a blocked sinus. This happens more with chlorinated swimming pools, but I think O3 treated ones are not great for your health either.

Running on the other hand doesn't seem to give me trouble.

Every sport in the world is a direct source of injuries if you combine too important a workload and bad form. Your injuries have nothing to do with running itself, an activity that has been central to the human species' way of life for millions of years and that the human body is naturally designed for.

>way of life for millions of years and that the human body is naturally designed for.

yea we don't live that way of life anymore. We are talking about running for fitness after sitting in front of a computer for the rest of the day.

If it is so natural why do we need to read books and blogs about form? Are you suggesting that prehistoric people went through "running form bootcamps" before making it their "way of life" ?

What I meant is that the human species is naturally gifted for endurance running. We're not naturally gifted for underwater activities, we're not really designed for flying, but running at a moderate speed for long periods of time is something that we're naturally good at (and specific parts of our bodies are specifically designed in a way that helps with that activity).

The reason why we need to read books and get interested in the theory is especially because we're culturally evolved in a way that doesn't require for us to run around all day long. The skills associated with running are now almost obsolete when they were absolutely crucial back in the days of hunting and foraging for food. As a result, we've kind of lost touch with the minute details of what makes for efficient running, just like I'm not sure a lot of people would know how to make a fire in the wild anymore, those activities are a bonus now, not a necessity.

You don't really see animals running for hours in the wild. They sprint to hunt or survive, then they walk.

Humans tended to hunt animals to exhaustion. The sprinting predators you're talking about stalk in close then sprint to take down their prey; groups of hunter-gatherer humans have instead tended to chase animals a long distance at moderate speed until the animals drop from exhaustion. It makes it easier to take them down, when you consider that humans are not really going to be jumping on the back of a buffalo and biting its neck to kill it.

So you don't tend to see animals running for hours because that's a human speciality (among predators), and it's part of why we've been so successful as a species, despite our physical weakness compared to other predators.

Those were particular humans and the method worked in hot weather. Wolves hunt the same way, wound the animal then exhaust it. I don't think humans used this approach in Europe.

And the reason people need technique bootcamp is they're not physically active anymore. They have muscular imbalances that need direct attention to correct.

I spent years running in my late teens and early 20s and had no running-related lasting injuries - and I have flat feet.

While swimming is lower stress on the musculature and does a more full-body workout, I know several folks who simply got sick and couldn't continue daily regimens. Once they got better it difficult for them to continue. Surely proper preparation (swim caps/goggles) could have helped.

Basketball is crazy fun but potential for injury is much higher - I stopped due to injuries.

tl;dr - all activities require proper preparation.

If you don't like to run, then just don't do it. No one is asking you for a justification, so don't feel obligated to offer one.

That said, after forty years of competitive running at various levels, I can recall one debilitating injury, a stress fracture. Yeah, let's blame that on running and not being a dumbass sophomore in high school who thought 95 miles/week was a ticket to success.

But do what suits you as long as it gets you off yor ass.

Wow, that's a crazy figure (to me anyway). Have you ever written up your experiences anywhere?

It is a crazy figure for high school kids at least (though far from unheard of). But that was back in the day when our heroes ran ridiculous mileage, too. Problem for me was that my heroes were training for 10K meters or more at an international level, not just hoping to make the state meet in the 2 mile. I wasn't pushed by a coach to do so (my coach probably would have had a cow had he known), it was mid-winter and what the hell else am I going to do in Indiana in December? For the remainder of high school I kept it to 70/week, and much less when competition started.

If you have the time (and that's probably the biggest limiter), 95 miles/week isn't all that uncommon, especially among top runners. Whether one starts to run into massively diminishing returns is another discussion. Even now in my advancing middle age, I'll be trying to crank it up to a peak of 80 miles/week in preparation for a marathon in May (one last shot at a time goal before I get too old). Lots of early mornings and my wife won't see me on Sundays until noon, but doable for a person with a job. But we'll see if my old legs can still handle that, and adjust accordingly if necessary. And I don't plan to win anything; if I have a really good day maybe I can walk away with a free pair of socks.

As for write-ups, meh, there are plenty with more interesting stories than mine (and to directly answer your question: no, never written anything worth reading). I've always been one of those "just shy of greatness" runners. Never quite good enough to qualify for Olympic Trials, pack fill at cross-country nationals, that kind of thing. As I often say, there are two people on the planet that care about my results: my wife and my mother, and I'm not 100% sure about my mother. So I've just never written much down.

Ah, well thanks for sharing here anyway and good luck in May.

While you'll develop better muscles and endurance by switching to swimming, you will not get the helpful stress on your bones without some form of other exercise like biking.

It's ironic that it is IT band syndrome that caused this reaction, since that's by far the easiest running-related "injury" to solve.

There is literally one magic-bullet stretch that will solve it completely - allowing you to go from excruciating "am I destroying my knee?" pain to pain-free in a few days or a week.

Just a note: even if you don't ever return to running, that tightness in your hips and your IT is not getting better - you will need to address that at some point because it will rear its head again. Foam rollers, big rubber bands that you walk sideways in, and sideways leg raises/circles, if you're curious.

I'm in the exact same situation as parent. Except i skipped to biking. It seems to me that Foam rollers ( or in my case just stretching on a tennis ball) are good for relieving the pain a bit after you've stopped running. But what do you suggest to stop having the pain in the first place ?

To avoid pain run less distance at a slower pace. People generally build up way too fast. I had plenty of problems in my late 40's when I tried to run and went at it like when I was a kid. But when I slowed down and built distance up very slowly I had no problems. Now I run marathons and have averaged about 45 miles/week for 2014.

Regarding form, I would say it's not something you need to focus on. Do try to run as straight up as you can, like you're a marionette suspended from strings with your legs moving beneath you (probably same thing said another way as "pretend you're running on thin ice"). But other than that your body will mostly sort form issues out unconsciously as you very slowly ramp up running mileage.

The magic stretch is the one where you lie, on your side, on the edge of a bed.

Then, you drape the affected leg (the leg that is on top, not the leg you're lying on) behind you, such that your foot ends up below the level of the bed.

You're basically stretching your hip farther than you could stretch it normally, since you can drape it backwards into empty space.

Play with it a bit, with different angles, etc. This is the stretch that can have you go from debilitating pain (I couldn't even walk properly) to completely asymptomatic.

This is a good stretch for everyone, since even if you don't have "IT band issues", most people have much tighter hip joints than they think, and it affects the health of your knees and back.

I've actually got an alternative magic stretch that can be done standing (so you can do it in the middle of a run). It involves crossing your legs and reaching over to the side.

Image here: http://www.runnersworld.com/sites/default/files/rt/images/20...

In my experience, stretches and foam roller are both ways to alleviate the discomfort, but they don't fix the underlying problem, which is related to running form and specific muscle weaknesses. When the gluteus medius is weak, or when the lower leg is rotated inwards slightly by the arch flattening, the IT band ends up under excessive tension, trying to keep everything in line. The long-term fix for me was to strengthen my feet to reduce pronation, to do lots of deep squats, and to focus on "firing" the glutes while running.

Running really is horrible. Let's not forget marathons commemorate a guy who ran until he died. I don't quite understand the pleasure people get from it!

Having said that I run 2km daily. No more, no less, 'tis a bitter pill but with heart disease in my family I consider it worthwhile insurance.

We inherited quite a few swimmers at a club sport in college, and most of them had had various kinds of shoulder issues. Not to mention the various ear, nose, and skin issues from the chlorinated water.

You can get hurt with any sport if you get unlucky on the genetic draw, or overtrain.

Have you considered the idea that you may have been injuring yourself due to poor technique?

Humans have been running long distances for a long damn time.

"How should I run" is a question that can only be asked by someone who doesn't run much.

That sounds flip and snarky, so let me frame it in a personal way ...

Years ago, when I started my martial arts training, I naturally asked a teacher about some details / techniques of a certain kick. He said "do that kick 5000 more times and then ask me that". So I did. And I had no questions to ask about it.

That's the beauty of your brain and body interface - you have a built-in mechanism for stripping away extraneous movements and inefficiencies and honing a physical act to the most efficient movement available. It just happens.

So when I hear people talk about fine details of running technique, I say "run 1000 miles and then revisit those questions".

Pro tip: when your body is most tired is when you'll find the movements that are least important. When you are close to exhaustion, you won't have the extra elevation or the extraneous movement or the inefficient motions - you'll find the path of least effort. So in addition to running those 1000 miles, run some of them until you're very tired.

This seems like dangerous advice -- the flip side of this auto-correct-by-experience coin is creating entrenched bad habits. As a common example, take posture: "Just stand up and walk around 5000 times and then ask me what correct posture is." Yet the majority of people have problematic posture, both when standing and when sitting, despite a lifetime of practice.

While there probably are examples where your martial arts teacher's advice makes sense, in my personal experience it seems wrong for most physical movements (walking, weight lifting technique, posture, dancing, etc).

Very dangerous for musical playing - bad playing movements can lead to carpal tunnel and such

My personal experience as well. I squatted for years and the secrets of perfect form eluded me. I had anterior pelvic tilt. Certain muscles were tight, others underdeveloped and correcting the issue was very tricky.

The advice may work for people who are generally physically active, as their muscles won't be out of balance from sitting.

Middle distance runner here, disagree with most of this. I agree that there's not much point for a beginner runner to worry too much about form. However, simply running a lot does not give most people efficient form (it does prevent them from having horrible form, but doesn't force them to have good form). I have a friend who has been running 60-70 miles/week for a few years, and his form is still quite poor (and this limits his speed for middle distance races).

Also, I don't have a source to reference, but I do not believe your "pro tip" at all. I'm quite sure running efficiency goes down as fatigue increases. Common advice is to focus on your form when you start to fatigue, because this helps you keep efficiency up.

Finally, I doubt any of the "elite" runners referenced in that video have the form they have just by running a lot of miles. Running efficiency is something to think about and to work towards, not to just acquire by running a lot (of course, running a lot helps).

All of this comment is wrong, but I think the "pro tip" is especially important to correct. When you're close to exhaustion is when you most need to think about form, because the easiest default motions are not the most efficient. You'll find the path of least mental effort, not physical effort, and it'll cost you a lot.

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