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Comment by curiousDog | Hacker News Reader

Would be nice if someone extrapolated how the wages would look like today if the H1-B program wasn't put into place. Would programmers be making WallStreet salaries? How would that have impacted the start-up ecosystem? Also, numerous H1-Bs are the core of companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc. How would things have looked without any of them?

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And where would wages be if the biggest tech employers had not been blatantly colluding to depress wages, using illegal anti-competitive tactics?

Paul Graham advocates for free trade when it will increase the value of his portfolio and the wealth of his friends. He doesn't say a word about how free trade has been undermined by the illegal collusion of Facebook, Google, and Apple.

Agreed, there does seem to be a pretty asymmetric view of the effects of free trade by the VC crowd and the media.

Case in point, there has been an almost complete radio silence in the tech and mainstream media about the wage suppression related class action lawsuit that is ongoing. There was a brief flurry of reports at the beginning, but ever since Aug, when the judge rejected the proposed settlement, there has been no mention of the lawsuit at all.

The only people who keep the issue alive are the rank and file tech folks as witnessed by the comments section of any article related to tech wages and immigration.

I would just like to point out Facebook was not among the companies indicted for collusion.

Think what you will about Facebook, but it is on the high horse in this occasion.

You're right. I would edit it but the comment is now too old to edit. My sincere apologies to Facebook.

Here is a partial list of guilty companies:

Apple

Google

Microsoft

IBM

Adobe

Oracle

Sun

Intel

Earthlink

Virgin

Genentech

eBay / Paypal

Pixar

Intuit

Lucasfilm

Dreamworks

Dell

Comcast

Clear Channel

WPP

AOL

AskJeeves

Lycos

Oglivy

Illumita

DoubleClick

>lso, numerous H1-Bs are the core of companies like Google, Microsoft, Facebook etc. How would things have looked without any of them?

Google would not exist if the US immigration policies were always strict. Sergey Brin is an immigrant. Neither would lots of companies.

http://www.economist.com/news/business/21576101-start-ups-fo...

Sergey Brin came to the U.S. with his family at the age of six from the USSR.[1] His family was probably admitted to the U.S. due to the religious persecution they faced: "Michael Brin [his father] claims Communist Party heads barred Jews from upper professional ranks by denying them entry to universities, and that Jews were excluded from the physics departments in particular."[2]

So his story is not very relevant to the discussion of H1-B visas and tech worker shortages.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sergey_Brin#Childhood_in_the_S...

There is a very reasonable case to be made that H1-B's in particular actually push domestic salaries up at the expense of foreign salaries.

No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.)

H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers.

> H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily.

Agreed.

> green card applications go to back of the line

If you have an approved I-140 you can use the priority date of the original application. So no, it does not go to back of the line. Also, under the new executive action on immigration reform one of the proposals suggested is to issue EADs to folks with approved I-140s.

> must get a new job fast if they are laid-off

Agreed.

> No there isn't. H1-B workers can't leave their current employer easily. (green card applications go to back of the line, must get a new job fast if they are laid-off, etc.)

Actually, that glitch has been fixed. I was witness to a counter example.

> H1-B employees are not mobile thus their salaries lack other workers.

Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for domestic workers. There isn't strictly a zero sum game here, as cheaper skilled labour and more importantly a greater skilled labour supply can make business models viable that otherwise aren't.

What is certain though is that every H1-B programmer is a programmer that otherwise would have otherwise been working in another country, and almost certainly at much lower wages. Odds favour that they'll get a job as a programmer.

> Yes, but having H1-B employees may nonetheless open up opportunity for higher paying wages for domestic workers. There isn't strictly a zero sum game here, as cheaper skilled labour and more importantly a greater skilled labour supply can make business models viable that otherwise aren't.

Sure there are benefits for EMPLOYERS. However, you aren't making a very good case for EMPLOYEES.

NAFTA and all the other "free" trade agreements since NAFTA always promised these wonderful benefits to Americans.

And those benefits were delivered... provide the American in question was worth $10+ million. But there are entire cities in the Midwest that saw major, devastating declines over the last 20 years as a result.

Everything sold to the American public about immigration and the benefits of opening up borders has talked about how wonderful the next new agreement will be for American businesses. Well it turns out the only "American" businesses that benefited are those listed on the NYSE/NASDAQ. Mom/pop businesses have been driven out of business as more and more of their customers have sunk from middle class to lower class.

> What is certain though is that every H1-B programmer is a programmer that otherwise would have otherwise been working in another country, and almost certainly at much lower wages. Odds favour that they'll get a job as a programmer.

Great. That's fine.

Now mind you, I do know the history of immigration in the U.S. And it used to be in general a benefit to more than just the business owner. But the last 25 years have been characterized as a coordinated effort by the 1% to drive everyone else into poverty by making Americans fearful of their jobs being sent overseas, union busting, tax giveaways, and Wall Street financial shenanigans.

"Immigration reform" as proposed by Paul Graham is just more of the same. It is clearly just to benefit him and people like him - there is no benefit to anyone else.

> Sure there are benefits for EMPLOYERS. However, you aren't making a very good case for EMPLOYEES.

Yeah, you're looking at this too narrowly. A new opportunity that otherwise didn't exist, that just might have a few high wage jobs in it. Even if the average salary goes down, the total number of opportunities goes up.

> Now mind you, I do know the history of immigration in the U.S. And it used to be in general a benefit to more than just the business owner. But the last 25 years have been characterized as a coordinated effort by the 1% to drive everyone else into poverty by making Americans fearful of their jobs being sent overseas, union busting, tax giveaways, and Wall Street financial shenanigans.

Perhaps a reflection of something other than evil businesses behind this. Might be a reflection of absurd global wealth inequality that is slowly getting chipped away.

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