Mozilla and KDDI Launch First Firefox OS Smartphone in Japan | Hacker News Reader

Mozilla and KDDI Launch First Firefox OS Smartphone in Japan

blog.mozilla.org

146 pointsprajjwal62 comments

Super excited to see FFOS getting launched in Japan!

Also, glad that FFOS is on a higher spec phone, should deter some of the detractors.

People often scoff/don't understand when I explain it to them, but I run FFOS (I have the Flame) because I (want to) support Mozilla and everything they stand for.

Bit Mozilla needs to create a product good enough that people who don't care about what they stand for want it. Firefox was not a success because it was open but because it was the best browser on the market (but being open was properly a contributing factor to that).

Indeed. I have the Flame as well and I'd love to use it... but the truth is, as an operating system, Firefox OS is just so worthless. I tried sending UX reports to the team but it really feels hopeless at this point :(

Wish them luck though. Congrats on the release.

disclaimer: I work on FxOS

Care to elaborate why hopeless? I Use Flame as my second device and while I totally agree that there's a lot of work needed before FxOS "feels" as polished as Android or iOS, I don't feel like it is hopeless.

Remember Android 2.0? What a piece of.. ehm.. unpolished mobile OS it was? FxOS 2.2 is significantly more useful than any 1.x.

p.s. If you also have any basic webdev skills, you can fix UX yourself. I miss charging time notification on lockscreen and I started working on it yesterday [1] - fairly easy to add. We just need webdevs to help us hack :)

[1] https://github.com/zbraniecki/gaia/commit/a7829b7f4750e294b3...

[Disclaimer: I am indirectly affiliated with Mozilla - I'm also an UX dev in addition to a programmer]

I don't just remember Android 2.0: I have an HTC Desire phone running it (it can't upgrade any further due to its limited hard drive space).

First impressions are awful: The Flame feels slow and extremely unpolished (the stretching is ridiculous, no progress bars in the system updates and other places, hard-to-find text-only buttons, missing fade-out effects...). The screenshot gesture/keybind that triggers almost every time I unlock the phone. Confusing wording all over the place. Performance issues everywhere, even on the lock screen and camera, etc etc.

These are just some the ones I gathered in the first couple of hours. I stopped writing them down... and I stopped using the phone altogether after two days. I wanted, I really wanted to contribute to it but the amount of basic UX issues made me feel like there is little QA/UX being done at all.

My FOSS time is limited. I have a job in FOSS, and I do LXQt work in my off time (in addition to personal project). Being put in front of Firefox OS made me feel like what you guys needed were more full-time UX devs on it, not an assorted basket of contributions. This is why it felt very hopeless to me.

This was a couple of months ago. I have to admit I did not update since, the phone just went unused. Upgrading it is on my TODO some time in the next few months, unless you tell me things radically improved since.

Do you know what version you were running?

There was a recently an upgrade to 2.0, and I have to say that it is pretty amazing. Definitely a lot better than 1.3.

They went a drastically different way with the home screen (I say drastic, but they basically went from horizontal scroll to vertical scroll, but that's a pretty drastic UX change), and I think the UI is much better and much more consistent.

Which version are you describing? As I said, I use "nightly" 2.2 and it is drastically different experienxe (altough still fairly raw) than 1.3/1.4.

I used android G1 (same as your dream). Do you claim it was smoother? Faster? More polished?

Nightly from october or so. I believe it's the 2.x branch.

Mozilla, if you're listening, please take this as feedback on how to improve the QA/user acceptance tests. Even if v2.0 is better, v1.0 shouldn't have shipped to the public in this condition. Another dev who desperately wanted to use your phone couldn't.

Users experiencing these types of issues in 2014, when the alternative is silky smooth phones, is negative word of mouth. The expectations around phones have changed and it isn't 2006. I wish you luck.

I think you put it very well: The expectations have changed, and while Android had rough starts, it also had the benefit of the doubt and of a completely new field (there was just ios then, and it too was very primitive!).

In LXQt, as desktop environment devs, just because the software we create is alpha, users don't expect things to look and feel like windows 95. They expect something modern right off the bat, and we should integrate our own previous experiences on all the other systems that did what we're doing. I think because of that, we have an advantage.. and so should Firefox OS.

As a Mozilla fan and the owner of a Flame: Basic functionality is missing. I couldn't offer it to my wife (more or less still dicovering the word of smartphones) and cannot use it myself (and I can live w/ a stock CyanogenMod installation, w/o GApps if necessary, byninstalling one or two things).

Back to the UX: Can random people on the net really fix that? I got the impression that while technical fixes would be fine to submit, UX decisions are mostly 'done' and hard to impossible to argue about as a lay person. Would you disagree?

Yes I disagree that UX decisions can't be argued. File bugs (start at https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=firefox%2...), and cc firefoxos-ux-bugzilla@mozilla.com

For sure it may not be easy to get changes, but that's the same for paid contributors (I still have bad memories of keyboard changes I fought against and could not get in).

Thanks, to both of you.

(I have some issues with the keyboard as well, but that's "old" now)

Basic functionality is getting added and you can help. UX wise, you definitely can change UX. File bugs, join dev.gaia and lets talk about it.

My email is dale@arandomurl.com, I am trying to improve the feedback flow between users and development of the OS, if you could email me about particular issues or how you would fine your feedback best sent / replied to I would really appreciate it

Thanks Dale

Thanks - This was all the immediate feedback I could give. I actually was given a few emails I could send my thoughts to, and I found the feedback flow to be just fine. The problem was with the AMOUNT of feedback to send.

This. I'm happy to put up with some mild inconvenience to move toward more open ecosystems. I have predominantly used Linux since 1995 (since long before Linux was nice on the desktop), and as Firefox OS devices make their way to the US, I'll likely migrate off of Android.

Also, Firefox, the browser, is really firing on all cylinders these days. The developer edition is awesome, syncing is awesome and works across all devices (I use Firefox on phone, tablet, and Linux and Windows). And, most importantly, I trust Mozilla more than any other browser provider. I store a lot of stuff with Google, Amazon, Facebook, and Flickr, but I'm not entirely happy about it (to varying degrees).

Is the sandboxing released into public builds yet? I've been sort of holding off on making the jump back to FF until that happens. Still champing at the bit a little for precisely the reasons you mention. Firefox is worthy of support simply by virtue of being both open, and supported by an organization whose motives aren't intrinsically suspect.

Not yet. Sandbox is heavily tied to e10s aka. electrolysis, what is planned for Fx39 (meaning that we should expect it for Fx41+).

For what it's worth, Firefox has been somewhat more stable for me than Chrome on Linux lately (there are other reasons to want the sandboxing, but stability is one of them). Now that Flash is so much less common than it was a few years ago, the instances where my browser dies due to a misbehaving plugin have dropped to almost none. Also, the only reason I ever start Chrome is to watch Netflix or other sites that won't work in Firefox (I still had to tweak the user agent to claim to be something different to convince Netflix to work); so it's possibly not surprising that it crashes more than Firefox.

And, of course, it's anecdotal.

Netflix should work in Firefox, though you need Microsoft's Silverlight plugin. Mozilla is actively working on EME (aka HTML5 video DRM) for 2015.

Wow. When did Silverlight become available for Linux? I knew it was available for Android, Mac, and Windows. But, last time I looked it wasn't available for Linux. Which is why I've been using Chrome for Netflix, as it has HTML5 video DRM (I guess; I just followed instructions online months ago and it worked and I haven't changed it since).

But, I see that Microsoft does provide a download for Linux and FreeBSD and even Solaris! Oh, wait, it's a redirect to Moonlight. I didn't think it worked with Netflix, but if I find myself with some free time I might play with it.

I use pipelight, and it just uses what seems to be silverlight through wine. Haven't had any problems.

It should be noted that while Firefox doesn't have tab sandboxing, it does isolate Flash (by launching it in a separate process called plugin-container).

Here's how firefox describes plugin-container [0]: Plugins are loaded separately from Firefox, allowing the main Firefox process to stay open if a plugin crashes.

This is different than a sandbox. A sandbox limits what the plugin is capable of doing to the system. The whole point of sandboxing flash is that it has had numerous security holes.

0. https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/what-is-plugin-containe...

Sync is so awesome I have a bunch of devices, and use sync on all of them, and it just works. I second the trusting Mozilla more than any other browser provider (and even general service provider, if you think of Google/Amazon/Facebook/etc that way)...

I rather prefer Mozilla to spend resources on Servo and Rust.

Symbian web widgets, WebOS, ChromeOS, Chrome Packaged Apps, ...

We have already seen it multiple times already, it always fails to impress.

Yes, this! Rust (and by proxy, Servo) shows the most promise out of everything listed on that recent "Mozilla Projects" link.

I will hopefully be able to contribute back to Rust a bit once I'm a bit more skilled with it.

I respectfully disagree. While I absolutely love Rust and Servo, I think Mozilla needs more consumer-facing products. Rust and servo get you dev-props, but they need more of the non-developer populace to recognize Mozilla and support them.

I would think a reaction like "oh Mozilla wants to me to sign some petition about net neutrality? they're that weird internet company that's all open or whatever, right?" is waaaay better than something like "Mozilla? what's that?".

Also, I think what they're doing IS impressive. the platform they're attempting to build is in stark contrast to everything else that exists out there (Android, iOS, Blackberry) -- and it couldn't be simpler or more open (well, without sacrificing quality). They are the truest-to-open-source platform out there, I think that's impressive

I hope what it needs more of to be more responsive is RAM, not CPU. Or the 2.x release of OS.

I have tried 512MB Alcatel Fire E in store and the keyboard felt laggy. I was happy for Mozilla that they finally got their phones in brick-and-mortar stores here in Russia. It was launched here in mid-Novemver, (finally, yay!), for 3990 rubles ~ $65; though the only ones I see in stores are of unlisted coffee brown color for some reason [1]. I am not sure I can actually recommend one, though, other that a geek's toy, because, even though carrier subsidy is all but unknown here, there already are cheap carrier-branded Android phones that are better value for the price. Or some non-branded ones, even: there is a choice of Android phones with similar hardware from reputable companies like Samsung, now!

But of course, that's good news for Mozilla and I'm thinking of maybe importing this phone for me from Japan. Previously I was pinning for Alcatel Fire S, when (if?!) it will eventually be released (come on, it was announced in February!) http://www.gsmarena.com/alcatel_fire_s-6140.php

[1] Megafon | Alcatel One Touch Fire E 6015X Chocolate http://spb.shop.megafon.ru/mobile/87125.html

This is exciting as hell. Not because I will use this device (I won't, but I will buy to play with like I do Android phones). But it excites me so much because:

1) mobile is an important space (free protip!) — both in terms of software and business, and in terms of just living your life with your family and friends in the modern age

2) this is the kind of competition that is needed in this space

I don't use the Firefox browser very often in modern times, but I witnessed it's whole evolution. If it didn't exist, I don't think Apple and Google would have made these awesome Firefox-killers. They would have made MSIE-killers and the world today wouldn't be as awesome as it is for desktop browsers.

The still-in-its-infancy world of mobile mostly sucks today, because you have only two significant players controlling it.

One of them is a monomaniacal control-freak that won't even let you change your default browser, and demands that you pretend we live in a sparkling antiseptic world where there are no messy things like bittorrent or porn or (gasp!) programming software directly on your mobile device.

The other player is like this sort of Orwell-meets-Disney-City player, giving you free email (that it reads) and all sorts of free services (that let it track where you are, who you talk to, what you buy...). Not Big Brother, but more like Big Creepy Uncle, who seems nice but always wants to take pictures of you that make you feel uncomfortable afterwards.

Android is sort of open but the open/rooted version of it doesn't really compete with itself very much.

Competition between three players is always better than two. But when one of them is a legitimate free open source player, it is much better.

Think about a computer user who has never used Linux once. Just Windows and Mac. Even that person has had their computing life massively enriched by the existence of Linux, and the influence that its existence has had on the platforms that person does use.

We don't have that third player on mobile yet, which is keeping us in the cave man era. It seems increasingly like Firefox OS is really going to become that player.

I'm going to be in Japan next week and was excited enough by the IMO gorgeous industrial design and hopefully-fast-enough mid-range specs to want to get one, however, while the Fx0 has Band 1/18 LTE, KDDI's 3G network is CDMA, not GSM/UMTS. I'vealso been told by friends that all their phones are typically locked as well. Dropped an email and it'd be great if that weren't the case and proper antenna's/baseband support was built in, but I won't get my hopes up.

There's a dedicated site/product portal for the Fx0 and it looks like they kicked off the launch w/ some hackathons last month: http://au-fx.kddi.com/

The product info page says it supports global roaming (LTE/UMTS/GSM) at the very bottom[0]. au/kddi will not unlock their phones right now, but starting May 2015 all Japanese operators are required to unlock their phones, so you'll have to wait until then.

[0] http://au-fx.kddi.com/products/#title07

Ah, good to know. I'll drop by the Tokyo store and see if they'll sell me one w/o a contract. Last time I dropped by a Japanese phone store they wouldn't sell me a phone w/o one, and of course, wouldn't sell me a SIM w/o an alien registration card.

The article from the verge got more pictures and details: http://www.theverge.com/2014/12/23/7440079/fx0-firefox-os-sm...

That phone looks awesome.

I really want a firefoxOS phone that is spec'd out like a nexus 5 to exist...

If it's any consolation, you can build and install FirefoxOS on a Nexus 5. Note, we are still working on Lollipop support.

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/Firefox_OS/Preparing_for...

You can even dual boot Android and Firefox OS:

http://bluishcoder.co.nz/2014/06/11/dual-booting-android-and...

The main issue is lack of support for some Nexus 5 hardware, like the camera. Bugs raised for this are not dealt with as the Nexus 5 is not a supported platform.

Nexus 5 is our main Lollipop target so all these issues will be fixed.

I'm digging the translucent case. Brings back good memories of Nintendo 64.

And the first iMacs.

Surprisingly sexy looking thing, except for the home button.

Conspicuous lack of information about screen resolution, and a ridiculously high price given the specs relative to equivalent Androids and Windows devices.

I'm a (fairly loud) FF OS detractor, and this flailing around looking for a niche (apparently this time Japanese web dev geeks that will prize ideology over function) betrays a complete lack of market demand for it. Google's Android 5.0 screw up is causing there to be the biggest opportunity for a mobile OS land grab in years, but you're not going to progress with an even more extreme version of the ultra-thin-client model.

> Google's Android 5.0 screw up

Care to elaborate?

For inexplicable reasons, Lollipop removed silent mode. The new task switcher is an abomination and memory management is way too harsh (constant gc-ing)

Seems that silent mode is still there, but the name is changed:

https://gigaom.com/2014/11/17/silent-vibrate-do-not-disturb-...

I haven't used lollipop so I don't know about the task switcher and memory management. These seem like they could be quite annoying, but fixable and not a complete failure.

I haven't heard Lollipop being widely described as a boondoggle, so I'm wondering if it's as big of a failure as you are ascribing.

Adding my own two cents here—

- You can no longer put your phone into silent from the volume slider

- You can no longer put your phone into vibrate or silent from the power menu

- They removed the shortcut to "app info" from the most recents menu, and from the notifications menu (I used this to force-stop apps)

- Apps randomly restart themselves; I assume this is a memory leak issue (this is on a Nexus 5, I'd never experienced this before)

- Reduced battery life (night-time battery life is abysmal—my first night with Lollipop I missed my alarm because my phone died)

I was so frustrated by Lollipop I reset my phone to Kit Kat. They removed a bunch of shortcuts, and I really don't understand why.

And this would be the reason for a "landgrab" in mobile?

Most users hardly notice spyware hijacking their browser. I don't think they will be too concerned with harsh memory management.

I said nothing about landgrabing...Just pointing to some of the failings of lollipop.

I also heard that the new calendar is several steps backwards.

I found Lollipop to be an improvement in general, but as for the calendar,

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Has copy/paste support dropped? I'd love to use my flame as my daily driver, but I use Lastpass (and rely on) which is rendered useless without copy/paste.

Either way this is super exciting!! Well done to the FFOS/Mozilla team!

Shame it's based on the fairly old 32-bit Snapdragon 400; it immediately looks obsolete next to the current wave of Chinese wunderphones.

The 400 is bargain-basement material on that sort of market, usually paired with a 720p screen around the $100 mark. The only phones cheaper than that use the MTK chipsets.

It is still impressive to me by itself that Mozilla was able to enter the mobile OS market. That said, I wonder if and when Firefox OS will turn into a platform that it would be rational for you to target as a for-profit developer. Has anyone here on HN made any money off FxOS apps yet?

"Fx0 is the first high-spec Firefox OS smartphone with the latest Firefox OS update inside"

So does this mean it has FxOS 1.4? or 2.1?

It's good that they have a mid-range phone now. Hopefully they'll someday have something here in the US that's competitive.

FxOS2.0 was mentioned in several articles.

So is that the latest release or is it still 1.4?

2.0 is now the latest, as of the release of this phone.

Would say 2.0... since it's stable branch now don't know why they would not go with it...

Anyone has recommendations for a FF phone, in the U.S? I looked into them 6 months ago, couldn't find a good one for daily use - will gladly give up my iPhone for a decent FF phone

We're currently working on the next generation reference device. Until that comes out, my recommendation is to try out the OS on a Nexus 4 or Nexus 5. I use FirefoxOS on a Nexus 5 and it's quite nice, except not all of the hardware features work yet, including the camera. These are being actively worked on though and should be finished within a few months.

Does this mean that a device like Alcatel Fire S will be obsolete before release?

Congratulations! Super-excited to have an open mobile OS making strides forward.

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