"Pope Francis suggested in a homily in May that he would baptize Martians if they landed in St. Peter’s Square and asked for it."
Forget about astronauts or reality shows participants. Let's send catholic priests to Mars.
Forget about astronauts or reality shows participants. Let's send catholic priests to Mars.
People compare social institutions, technologies and ideas all the time. And people develop opinions on them; some are viewed as better than others. This is the social learning process which has taken us (more or less) from cave dwelling, widespread violence, ignorance, slavery and "an eye for an eye" to the foundations modern societies rest on, more or less to everyone's approval. You wouldn't be trying to use a knee-jerk negative word to discourage, for religions, the kind of discussion which has stood us in good stead in many other areas of social discourse?
I hope you won't be too offended by this literally shitty analogy that was the first to come to my mind: Imagine a modern society just like ours, but in which people choose to do without toilets. Nobody talks about it much, it's just what they've always done, and they're unwilling to break with tradition in this respect. It's common practice to do your "business" in the street gutter, next to the curb. There's a daily removal service, and a 3x daily deodorizing service, and they reduce the associated problems. Still, this society has an unusual rate of some infectious diseases, and especially in the summer, deodorizing just doesn't seem to keep up. Here's a different society with a different choice on how to do things.
Would you be bigoted if you criticized this society for the pursuit of this practice? If you feel it's important to accept the choices of other groups, would you be willing to live in such a society? Would you think it wrong to at least try to talk to those folks about improving their lives by re-thinking their stance on indoor plumbing?
I think I still owe you the answer to your question. So: Yes, I think it's OK to critically examine all ideas, and choices, including religious ones, and to raise those objections we feel are in order. Why on Earth not?
If a person has devoted themselves to a specific religion, and they have not (and do not intend) in any way interrupt, impede, or inconvenience their fellow man, I don't see the debate. The Westboro baptist church is/are as fucked up as the 9/11 bombers. Believe whatever you want. Acting on it in a way that hurts fellow humans, completely different debate.
> You wouldn't be trying to use a knee-jerk negative word to discourage, for religions, the kind of discussion which has stood us in good stead in many other areas of social discourse?
You're picking on a word. I used it for a purpose: to make anyone who read the reply think about why religion is some special-case group of people we're all "allowed" to discriminate against. I could use your exact same argument to argue that its OK to discriminate against conservatives, liberals, Lakers fans, lawyers, women, the disabled, men, children, ect. Pick a group, substitute "religion" in your argument for whatever you'd like.
> I hope you won't be too offended by this literally shitty analogy that was the first to come to my mind: Imagine a modern society just like ours, but in which people choose to do without toilets. Nobody talks about it much, it's just what they've always done, and they're unwilling to break with tradition in this respect. It's common practice to do your "business" in the street gutter, next to the curb. There's a daily removal service, and a 3x daily deodorizing service, and they reduce the associated problems. Still, this society has an unusual rate of some infectious diseases, and especially in the summer, deodorizing just doesn't seem to keep up. Here's a different society with a different choice on how to do things.
If you would like me to take the bait of comparing religious beliefs to shitting in the street, I'm not going to bite.
> Would you be bigoted if you criticized this society for the pursuit of this practice? If you feel it's important to accept the choices of other groups, would you be willing to live in such a society? Would you think it wrong to at least try to talk to those folks about improving their lives by re-thinking their stance on indoor plumbing?
If you think comparing a thought/belief/idea to someone shitting on your front lawn similar, again, this is a lost argument. Thoughts don't hurt people, except maybe the thinker. Actions hurt people. Someone believing in Buddha isn't comparable to someone shitting on your lawn. Honestly, wow.
> I think I still owe you the answer to your question. So: Yes, I think it's OK to critically examine all ideas, and choices, including religious ones, and to raise those objections we feel are in order. Why on Earth not?
I agree with you. Critically examining ideas is a fantastic idea. Critically examining religion is a fantastic idea. Raising objections, no. Do you think its OK to raise objections to gays/lesbians and the lifestyle they chose? if course not. If someone is devoted to the islam religion, should I object to their lifestyle? No, of course not.
You did not answer my question at all.
Raising objections to ideas is something you're opposed to, while hiding behind the innate sexuality of gays and lesbians and pretending, as so many religious bigots do, that it's a choice. You exemplify why it's a commendable idea to oppose the misguided thinking of religions.
Perhaps you don't like the abstract idea of discrimination, but discriminating against religious groups is the same as discriminating against eskimos, hindus, blacks, whites, etc.
If your best friend has any self-esteem, he won't let you get away with spouting that demeaning garbage about homosexuality being a choice. So why are you subjecting me to it?
You seem to have trouble with this, so I'll explain it: the color of skin a person is born with is not his fault, and contrary to what you falsely believe in, which sex a person is attracted to isn't either. But the set of values a person makes his own is subject to parental and societal education - it's nothing but ideas, and both societies and individuals can and do learn to walk away from bad ideas and toward better ones.
You would like to see your religious ideas exempt from this process, for no reason other than reluctance to let go of the privilege religion has unfairly enjoyed for far too long. To which I say, "tough" - you might as well get used to it, because equality and reason aren't going to suffer your hissy fits for very much longer.