Cat Litter Boxes and DRM
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So, here's why I think it's interesting. The companies that sell these products likely make the bulk of their profit from the consumables. That makes it economically viable to sell the machine at break even or possibly a loss. Then the money comes from the consumables. This is a pretty attractive business model both to the manufacturer and possibly even the consumer.
The downside, of course, is that competitors can swoop in and make consumables as well. So now you're selling hardware for a loss and other people are selling consumables for razor thin margins and you're screwed.
I don't think there is an obvious answer here. Some of these markets might not be viable if the hardware has to be sold for a profit. So that kinda sucks. But the DRM also treats consumers like shit, so that really sucks.
Is perhaps the issue just that it isn't clearly stated up front? Amazon sells two flavors of Kindle readers. One with ads for less money and one without ads for more ($20). Once upon a time Apple sold DRM mp3s for 99 cents and DRM free mp3s for $1.29. Would you pay an extra $50 for a DRM free kitty litter box? Or an extra $100 (33%) on a fancy coffee maker?
Here's my take away. Some products are subsidized by consumables. DRM enables that subsidy. Without DRM that product may not be viable. DRM can be minimally negative (Steam) but can also be maximum hostile (Keurig). Finding the balance is tough and we should talk more about it.
The problem is, it's not simply selling the machine at a good profit; they are not selling you a machine, they are inexpensively buying your ability to choose...and that is worth a whole lot of money.
Customers have a choice to either buy their phone upfront and then choose from any number of much cheaper "consumables" (prepaid mobile plans) or to get a huge discount on the device in exchange for vendor-lock in and a higher cost in the long term.
Consumers, here in the US at least, widely prefer the latter either out of preference for lower upfront cost or because they are unaware of long-term savings.
Off-brand K-cups seem to sell for around $1.50-$1.70 each in a quick search. Official K-cups seem to sell for around $1.50-$1.80 each. Obviously there may be a non-price advantage to buying off-brand cups, but it's clear that they know who they are competing against. A 5lb bag of coffee from somewhere fancy is also between $1.60-$1.70 per cup. Coincidence?
Likewise, my post-paid phone bill is $60/mo and I buy a phone every so often for $199 subsidized. $1670 over the course of the two year contract. If I switch to a pre-paid plan, it's still $60/mo (for less) and the phone is now $599, for a total of $2040. Other carriers are in the same range ($50-80), most offer substantially less for that money, and basically everyone operates right around in the same price region +/- a few hundred dollars over two years.
It may be that they're all running their businesses perfectly optimized and this is what it costs to provide cell phone service and make a profit. I'm more inclined to think that this is the cost that the market will bear, and the minor variations that exist in service prices simply serve to keep a minority of the customers churning through the market in search of a better deal that doesn't exist in any significant sense.
Over 2 years, I pay $1070, assuming I buy a new $350 phone every 2 years. I might stretch the Nexus 5 to 3 years. If a specific phone that costs $600 is important to you, you'd pay $1320. The plan is light on airtime: 100 minutes with additional time for 9 cents per minute, but Google Hangouts can dial US phone numbers free of charge now.
So you can save a lot if you skip the subsitdy and fit a specific usage pattern.
In this case, $350 over 2 years isn't worth it to me, it would have to be some serious dough to get me to watch my minutes like a hawk. It is 2014 after all, and I have no desire to return to the days of paying for things per minute.
I feel like it's less that it costs T-Mo $30 to handle that amount of voice / data usage than that they have determined the market can bear $30 for cell phone service so that's what the price is. Which is what they should be doing to maximize their profit, but I think that's the source of why there is so little differentiation between carriers -- if there was real competition, we would be paying a lot less.
http://prepaid-phones.t-mobile.com/prepaid-monthly-plans "$30 per month — Unlimited web and text with 100 minutes talk... First 5GB at up to 4G speeds... This plan is only available for devices purchased from Wal-Mart or devices activated on T-Mobile.com".
That sounds good, except that I recently tried to activate a new, unlocked iPhone on t-mobile.com — and it didn't go well at all. The web site simply couldn't do it. Neither could the phone reps. It took a trip to a B&M store before I could get the phone activated, even though it came from Apple with a t-mobile SIM card already installed. So this $30 plan may not be a practical option if you want a specific phone.
That said I am pretty happy with t-mobile so far, using a post-paid plan. Connectivity has been better than I expected. International roaming was an amazing value on my last trip, but that might not be available on the $30 plan either.
It may be that the preinstalled SIM only works with postpaid plans, as they do seem to separate the two business models quite a bit (separate websites and such). International data roaming is not available on the prepaid plans, but swapping in a local SIM can be a good option for some use cases.
The same could be said of a lot of the Sprint MVNOs - Ting and Republic Wireless are also hyper aggressive price wise and always come out ahead of the major carriers in a matter of months (except T-Mobile, especially if you need a lot of data).
And that's the problem right there. Americans thinking they are actually getting a "huge discount" or subsidy. You are not. You're only paying the phone in monthly payments. That's it. If anything they get more money from you buying it with this "discount" than they would if you would buy it upfront. At least I think that was the case before. Now T-mobile forced all to adopt a transparent monthly payment plan for all phones, so you can easily do the math yourself to see if buying it through monthly rates is more expensive or not than paying full price upfront.
Anyway, bottom line is you're not getting a discount or subsidy.
Now, most carriers charge you more if you buy a "subsidized" phone, so it's a clear choice between paying more up front or paying more over time.
They give you a $5 discount for having a second line and a $5 discount on each for having a credit card on file to auto charge.
Net is $85/month for two. And it's the same network as AT&T (in fact, they are owned by AT&T).
Arguments that they should wait and save for the next 3 years are silly, because in those 3 years they're losing out on any opportunities enabled by having the device at the higher monthly cost. It's only an irrational decision because those opportunities frequently don't have any monetary value.
Very well put. Edit: And since most people are paralyzed by the sunk cost fallacy this works even better than plain cost analysis would predict, especially if they are deceived about the presence of DRM.
Given that this kind of business scheme naturally leads to DRM, I would like to see it banned. Pass a law saying that litter boxes must accept third-party litter. (And phones must be portable between different contracts, and cellphones and Xboxes must be able to run arbitrary software). Then the companies would have to charge the full price up front, and there would be no reason for them to add DRM.
I think you're crazy on mandating Xbox hardware to run arbitrary software. If you want to do that then just build a PC. Which is something you can do this instant. Demanding fewer options for consumers rather than more requires a spectacular argument which I don't think can be made here.
The law shouldn't be about specific individual products, but about consumer rights and vendor obligations.
I'd be happy to discuss a law requiring vendors to disclose at point-of-sale any measure taken in a product's design that artificially limits replacing consumables with 3rd party alternatives. Cat litter machines, ink jet printers, coffee makers, razors, cell phones, soda streams - if there's a reasonable assumption that you could buy kitty litter, ink, coffee beans, blades, airtime, or carbon dioxide gas - and _not_ have to buy those from one specific company who sell it at significantly above market rates, vendors should be required to clearly disclose that before the sale takes place.
Laws should solve _classes_ of problems, not instances.
Just because that's the only business model you thought of, it doesn't make it "right", or even make it something that shouldn't be perfectly legal to circumvent. If you claim to "sell" a coffee maker or cat poop machine, a reasonable person doesn't expect to be tying themselves to your company's future revenue stream. If you angrily discover this _after_ someone's taken your money without having made that clear beforehand - you should have every moral and legal right to _not_ participate in the DRM enforced consumables purchases, and still your the goods you "bought".
Car dealers and real estate developers don't think "Hey, no-one would buy our product if it was $x thousand dollars, therefore it's an uneconomically viable market!". They arrange partnerships with finance companies to ensure you can drive away with only $x hundred dollars down, and a contract (usually with someone else) to pay $y per month until it (and the interest) is paid off.
If you can't sell your cat poop machine (or coffee maker) for a price that covers the cost (and your required margin) because the up front costs sound too high - perhaps getting into or partnering with a business who specializes in providing credit and offering it for "$Z up front, and $Z/10 monthly payments for a year!" - instead of pissing off customers and creating a market opportunity for 3rd party electronics to drive your hardware?
(Of course, I'm probably completely wrong about consumer buying habits here. Most people still talk about the "free phone" they get when they sign up for a 2 year $80/month cell phone plan, and think they're getting a great deal... If you're happy enough to mislead your customers and deal with the blowback like this blog post, I suspect you'll make more money that I do...)
I'm sympathetic towards the cell phone issue but I think it's being brought up far too often here. In the United States you have three, maybe four, choices. It's easy for them to collude and price fix. The fuckers certainly did when charging $20 a month for text messages. It costs billions of dollars to enter that market so they could this easily. Pretty much anyone can enter the kitty litter box or coffee maker marketplace. Dozens of companies already have. I'm all about consumer choice and as long as there is choice if someone wants to offer a shitty deal then I'm perfectly fine with that.
Should we make it mandatory to display the DRM situation on the box before the purchase? I assume it's already done, in the form of "Recharge with our verified capsules for the highest standard of hygiene" in case of the cat litter box. It's not easy to inform consumers upfront in a meaningful way.
You don't even have to sell two flavors. Let Keurig do their silly DRM stuff. Just make sure it's absolutely clear on the packaging that you have no choice in who you buy the consumables from. If people prefer to pay more to avoid DRM, a competitor will surely arise if Keurig doesn't go for that market themselves.
Ultimately, these companies need to be reminded that you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. The model where you sell up-front cheaply and then make it up on consumables doesn't require DRM. All it needs is brand loyalty, preferably backed by a reputation for quality. For a real-world example, car dealerships make most of their money on service, not sales, even though everyone is free to take their car to any unaffiliated mechanic they like.
I'd want something more like, "This device uses technological measures to prevent compatibility with third-party packs." And a bit more front and center.
So Rage has a festering tumor of the Windows Steam attached to it for no reason but to force down my throat how I don't actually own this game.
Same applies to every game on Steam that runs fine in Wine but that you cannot download, and often cannot run, without running Steam through Wine as well.
I do not mind DRM on items I am renting and am expected to return, however if I make a purchase where there is no understanding it is to be returned for refund of deposit or the like it should not have DRM.
They recently released the technical specifications for the pods too. Hopefully the other manufacturers will decide or be forced to follow suit.
0: http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014240527023040664045791291...
I think there is a useful distinction to be made between Xbox DRM and Keurig DRM. The key difference is that people know what their in for with an Xbox - they know that they will be buying a few very expensive games a year for a few years. They may even know that this "subsidizes" the machine itself. But there's no other experience to have with the Xbox.
With Keurig (or cat boxes or ink cartridges), the situation is different because it's a refill problem that ordinary consumers can address themselves, and often want to. There is no equivalent experience with Xbox! (Well, you might argue that "programming a new game" is something like it, but it's still not "refilling" an existing game ( although that does give me an interesting idea for those systems that you could buy a "refillable" SD card that you can load with whatever code you want...)
Thanks for striking this off my list of "things I think might be useful." I don't need the odor of fresh-baked cat poop wafting through my house. I'll stick with the freshly-poop cat poop smell that concentrates itself fairly well to the room the litterbox is in.
The baked-poo stuff happens occasionally. If your cat has solid/large... waste products, it will almost never be a problem. The problem is when you get "rabbit pellet" style poo, and it slips between the cracks of the scooper. There is also a small dead zone in the center sometimes - but you can usually resolve this by removing/adding pellets.
I have a couple friends who have been using it for years, and I finally "upgraded" 3-4 months ago. Even if you have to replace it every 2 years, it's still a great deal.
The DRM in it is indeed bullshit, but for one cat the cost is low enough to not making hacking it worth my time. Perhaps if I get really bored one day.
not having to clean your cats poop once a day is "life changing" ?!
I know there are lots of cat lovers out there but I confess I just don't get it. Thankfully it's a completely voluntary thing - the owning of cats.
My girlfriend likes cats, so we picked up a stray from a local shelter. And she is a lot more affectionate than I had been led to believe cats were.
Hair IS a big problem though. Smell is much less of a problem than a small dog in an apartment (I might be biased, but I haven't had anybody tell me anything about smell. I should double-check with people I trust though).
It's not that I'm grossed out by the idea--not at all, I'm not very squicky when it comes to this matter. But it's the principle of it. It's probably also a rather silly idea, so bear with me for a bit :)
The idea is most illustrative with dogs, I'll argue it can be extended to cats later. When you have a dog, you're supposed to be its boss, right? This is healthy for the dog because it's a pack animal (unlike a cat), it'll behave better and feel more comfortable if it has a stable place in the social hierarchy, etc. But humans, primates are social animals too. And as it so happens, one common way of signalling social pecking order among primates is flinging poop at each other.
Now of course modern humans don't (usually) do this any more.
And I'm sure I'm over-thinking this. Which is what modern humans (can) do, unlike other primates (I think).
But the brain circuitry for this social pecking order pack hierarchy behaviour are still there. And I have an idea of this sad and confused primate ghost functioning somewhere in the back of my primitive brain circuits, wondering why it's handling the poop of another pack member that is clearly so very much of lower status than itself.
And that is why this idea (silly as it may be) would also extend to cats, even if they are not pack animals, the human cleaning their poop still is. Maybe even more strongly so, as dogs clearly display their relative social status to their bosses in a variety of other ways, while cats are usually lovingly described by their owners as having their very individualistic, charmingly alien, ideas on the matter of status.
So I don't know anything about pets or cats or dogs. I expect you to tell me this :) And I suppose my opinion on these matters will change quite a bit if/when I ever adopt one.
Still, having a robot (or robot toilet) take care of my cat's droppings would pretty much solve the whole débâcle. And yeah I can imagine how it could be "life-changing" in a similar manner as getting a dishwasher machine would be (given one does a lot of home cooking). I do wonder what a similar robot for dogs would look like, though. Because if it would walk your dog for you that's taking away part of the bonding and fun of having a dog in the first place. So maybe you'd just have to walk both your dog and POOPBOT 9000 at the same time, or something. The three of us could even play fetch together, maybe.
[0] I'm sure there are similar rules in the US but to be clear, in the Netherlands you are required by law to scoop your dogs droppings as you walk it outside. As a non dog-owner, and judging what the few exempt areas[1] look like, I'm quite happy with this rule.
[1] Quick bit of side-info about spatial planning in the Netherlands, contrasting with (say) the US or Germany: There exists no empty space in the Netherlands. None. Not between roads, plots of land, fields/plains/forests/nature, industry sites, anywhere. It's all accounted for, zoned and planned down to the square metre. Land is very expensive, and even the trimmings are zoned as "rest space" so they can be tracked.
I considered that as well, but it doesn't look like it closes up or gets particularly hot, I think it just warms up sufficiently to aid drying.
First of all, do your research on a product before you buy it, typically a quick google search will tell you whether or not there are any glaring problems with whatever it is you're considering.
Second, if you find that something you purchased contains harmful DRM, return it to the retailer if it is within the returns window. If it is not, post it on Craigslist or equivalent explaining why you're getting rid of it, you'll find a buyer without losing much money.
Thirdly, contact the company that made the product and inform them that you just returned or resold the product because it contains DRM that in your opinion is harmful to you the consumer, and that you will be avoiding any future products that include DRM, and that you will be sharing your BRAND_GOES_HERE experience with your friends and family.
The more we push back against this, the harder it is for that big-wig at FooCorp to deny that DRM has downsides. This will only work in the early stages while there are alternatives though, so push back now.
Why?
They will walk in to Walmart and see PooperScooperA for $100 and PooperScooperB for $200, will see the items have similar specs and buy A. Why they won't realize is A has DRM that only uses special expensive A packets. The packaging for A is going to hide this fact as much as possible.
And you are right, it leaves that advertising to us to bitch, post, and yell about DRM wherever we can. Many people will complain about how tired they are about said posts. Some forums will even be paid off by manufactures to block such posts.
This is how I see it going: Person buys slightly cheaper cat box. Person runs out of SpecialCleaningSolutionX that comes with the product. Person goes to buy more, but is taken aback by the high price of the cleaning solution. Person looks for noname brand cleaning solution and either doesn't find it, or does find it but finds out it doesn't work. Person then takes to social media to rant about their horrible experience with CompanyY and about how SpecialCleaningSolutionX costs far more than the price difference between that more expensive product was. Person's friends and family learn the lesson that Person did, but through osmsis. CompanyY wonders why sales for their product begin to drop off as word spreads.
It's unfortunate that a lot of people have to buy it to find out how horrible it is, but the alternative is researching the product before buying it and there's nothing preventing them from doing that, it's just truly unfortunate that it's come to this.
Problem solved: http://diyfather.com/wp-content/uploads/darth-vader-cat2.jpg
That solution might not work out well for everyone.
If you live near the ocean, you won't want to do this if your cat could be a toxoplasmosis carrier (I.e. is outdoors or otherwise could be eating rodents). Apparently toxoplasmosis makes it through water treatment and harms sea mammals.
Otherwise, this is a great way to go.
I suppose there's always a chance that they'll miss during training, but neither I nor my parents had a problem. I had a fried try training three youngish kittens, and they had a couple mishaps, but I suspect that's par for the course.
Our cat will "dig" in clean toilet water, which is a little gross. Fortunately, she won't dip her toes in soiled water. I'd much rather our cat track a little toilet water than soiled litter, as at least that has the benefit of some chlorine. We have a "no mellow" policy in our house.
A recommendation: from day 1 we've rewarded our cat with the "Greenies" dental treats. As a result, she is pretty vocal about getting our attention when the toilet needs flushing, which is about twice a day (one solid, one liquid evacuation). Another benefit that we didn't anticipate, is that the vet always remarks at how clean her teeth are. So, win-win on the Greenies.
(It is the jazz musician Mingus, and some friends are very find of this bit of trivia.)
She might like it. Although one potential issue is scaring off people by mentioning "germs". In other words putting an idea that didn't exist in many people's heads that they never thought of. Although also possible it would result in increased business as well.
Male cats frequently have severe problems that can be identified by changes in production of urine. You can't see those changes if the cat is pissing in a loo rather than a litter box.
Older cats become distressed when they are no longer able to use this method.
There are a few other reasons why people might want to think carefully before trying to train a cat to use a loo.
Being able to smell their waste in the litter box is also an important part of a cat's territory marking. Having it all flushed away or covered up in scented cleaning solution is going to raise the chances a cat starts peeing in inappropriate places under stress. Same with the lack of 'sand' to dig in when peeing in a toilet (at least the automated boxes still have a digging substrate). The digging is so instinctual that you don't have to train even feral cats to use a litterbox. As soon as they realize it's the only place in the house they can dig, they'll use it.
There's a lot of FUD about cat poo and toxoplasmosis, especially with regards to pregnant women and children [1].
Also if you're allowing your cat to poop in your toilet I'd say you're at a greater risk of infection because that poop is going to be airborne and quite possibly casting off oocysts into the air.
Finally having cats use human toilets is not natural, cats naturally want to bury their poop, it's normal for them. Not being able to perform this ritual can stress them out. Also you may miss out spotting signs of bowel or urinary diseases/infections which can bring down a cat pretty quickly if not treated promptly.
If you decide to share your house or flat with a cat then you just need to put up with their natural potty habits, or don't it.
[1]: http://www.humanesociety.org/animals/resources/tips/toxoplas...
Not sure I understand how my cat's poo, in water, promptly flushed, is more airborne than litter-deposited poo. If anything, I've had lots of people remark at how crazy it is that our apartment doesn't have any litter box smell at all.
Regarding health, as I wrote elsewhere, I'm fairly certain I'm much more aware of our cat's urine and feces than a litter box user.
I cannot comment on the naturalness of toilet training our cat. Yes, cat's have an instinct to dig, which ours apparently satisfies by batting at the back of the toilet seat. Maybe she's secretly suffering, however she sure seems to make happy, excited sounds for her kitty treat that she gets each time she uses the toilet...
I told him in no uncertain terms that training the cat to do its business in the toilet was crossing the line. The possibility of having to wait for the fucking cat to take a dump before I could go doubled with the fact I'd have to flush for the dumb fucker would be the final nail in the coffin of my dignity. I would not become the pet.
I can understand the convenience training a cat to do this, but there are some luxuries that should be the privy of humans, and sitting down to take a steamer without having to dig a hole should be one of them.
my biggest problem with cat litter is not the shit, but having cat litter be tracked across the bathroom - this is almost entirely solved with a top opening box. additionally, my dog is unable to eat the shit.
[1]: https://www.clevercatinnovations.com/top_entry_litterbox_abo...
Big pellets easier to deal with if flung out of the box + pads (you can use cheaper chux instead) drastically cuts down on the waste/effort and heavy bags of used and new litter, and makes me and my cat happy because there's no litter dust whatsoever to make us sneeze. It's a little loud and smellier, but whatever. One bag of pellets is one month, one pad per week (for my cat) and it's about ~$10-12 from Amazon (in bulk).
There are some interesting workarounds for the box too, like I've heard of people using Feline Pine instead of the pellets and having the sawdust collect in the pad tray.
But otherwise he mostly uses the big litterbox called Nature, never needs cleaning and doesn't smell!
As an aside, I think it's odd that there's alternate open-source firmware and cartridge resetters for a cat litter box, as well as some 3D printers, and there are completely-open-source 3D printers, but basically nothing at all of that sort for regular inkjet printers.
Inkjet cartridge refills (as opposed to refill cartridges)?
With the exception of having to buy regular cat litter, which isn't a big deal, it's better in every way. It runs in a couple of minutes instead of like 40 minutes. It's quieter. The litter doesn't get tracked around nearly as much as the plastic pebbles. It also has never turned my house into a shit oven.
I have considered a robot litter box, but seems to me, the cost far outweighs the benefit of not having to change the litter yourself very quickly. These things are pricey and based on what I've read in this post and tonnes of reviews online, they're not particularly that great.
expensive or not, getting correct litter is the key. And the mat of course. And feeding good food to your cat - that would significantly take care about smell, consistency, frequency and other important characteristics of the output product, not even mentioning overall health and well being of the cat.
Please get it.
The cost of leasing the battery for 36 months starts from €79/month (US$104/month) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Zoe
Later edit My statements were based on the previous rent-only strategy. Meanwhile, they also introduced the option to actually purchase the battery for ~€4000. As if your handing in your driving data wasn't enough, they can also disallow your charging at any time, and here is an excerpt from their TOS:
18.3 Battery Data For management, administration, and accounting we will collect information about your use of the Battery and the Electric Vehicle. This is to allow us to manage battery stocks, maintain hire payments at a competitive level, monitor performance of your Battery and monitor mileage and fast charge use. This data will be transmitted to us by the telematic box installed in the Vehicle. If you would like more information about this technical data, please write to Renault ZE Customer Services, RCI Financial Services, P.O. Box 495, Watford, Hertfordshire, WD17 1GL. If you have opted to install a Connection Pack we will also receive data about your location. If you do not wish us to receive location data you may disconnect the telematic box. Instructions for disconnecting the telematic box will be in the Connection Pack.
Like many other DRM'd products, there are hacks for the printer that can get around this (one resets the filament "odometer", another convinces the printer that your print uses zero meters of filament).
Existence of these hacks typically doesn't affect the makers of these DRM'd consumer-level products (like the cat litter box or the Keurig machine), in my estimation. Most consumers simply won't know that they have an option to either by choose another vendor, or find a hack to get around it.
People who buy 3D printers are already primed to hack that thing to pieces, though. In that case I think the DRM was a waste of time and money. They didn't understand their target market.
Internet sites like imgur could offer you discounted cats provided you were only able to upload funny videos or pictures of them to their own website, ensuring they get the resulting traffic.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thesalt/2014/11/10/358530280/want-t...
Yup! Except foxes:
We don't need someone coming in to reel off facts in a jerkish fashion. Facts aren't that hard to find.
shame on anyone that contributed to that. you're part of why HN has such a hateful, obnoxious sub-culture that drives more mature people away
Why not?
People don't pick their hobbies purely based on cost. Suggesting "quit your hobby" / "pick a cheaper hobby" as a solution for any problem other than "I literally can't afford to pay my rent any more" makes you seem like a pretentious asshole, and even then, the way you phrased it was just plain rude.