Comment by mcmancini | Hacker News Reader

Comment by mcmancini | Hacker News Reader

Parent Full thread

No, and the US has an "Order of the Engineer" modeled after that. It always seemed silly to me to wear a ring on your working hand when the first thing you do when working with your hands is to take of jewelry.

"Engineer" is a protected job title in the US, but most are able to operate under an industrial exemption and so legally use the title.

The reason why some are picky about the title is that it is a licensed profession, and has some expectations associated with it. If someone tells me they're an engineer, I assume they know how to use a Laplace transform, because that's common across disciplines at the undergraduate level. Same as applying perturbation theory at the graduate level. Same as having a common corpus of basic science knowledge. Same as with professional code of ethics. Etc.

To use your own logic above, calling yourself a software ninja doesn't make you a ninja, and calling yourself a software engineer doesn't make you an engineer. It might be legal, but it's crass.

> Laplace transform, because that's common across disciplines at the undergraduate level

At your specific institution. Every school has different curriculum, both within the engineering programs themselves, and when compared to other schools. There is no unified curriculum nor is there one unified thing that all engineers, regardless of their schooling, would know because I'm sure, at one school or another, that one thing would not be taught.

And what, exactly, is so crass about it? As I said, it's just a goddamn title. A made up word used to describe yourself. There's nothing inherently disrespectful about using a title. It doesn't instantly diminish the title of every other engineer on the planet just because someone decided to call themselves an engineer without getting a B.AS. I could call myself the Queen of Rotunda, my made up domain. That doesn't suddenly mean that I'm disrespecting Queen Elizabeth, or any other queen in the world.

I'm not sure you're informed on this topic.

The whole point of having ABET accredit programs is to standardize a basic body of knowledge. Curricula in mechanical, chemical, electrical, and biomedical all include solving DEQ and PDE systems. Solving those without Laplace transforms is cruel, once the basic principles are understood of course.

If it's just a goddamn title, then you wouldn't be so insistent on using it. You want to use it because it implies a level of education and professionalism. It's crass to use the title because there is such a thing as software engineering, and the people most strongly insisting to use the title don't practice it. Like I said, you can legally use it, but licensed engineers are rolling their eyes when your back is turned.

The very fact that you have a body accrediting programs means that there will be many schools serving up engineering degrees that are not accredited by ABET or one of its member societies, especially internationally. Are these people suddenly not engineers just because a licensing body has not bestowed their program the honour of accreditation? Just because there's an accreditation board does not suddenly make it the only ruling body on who can use the title "engineer". Unless it's actually illegal to be an engineer without being accredited by ABET, then their word really means jack shit.

> there is such a thing as software engineering

Which differs from place to place, yes. Not every program has been accredited but still provide software engineering degrees, perhaps with elements that would not be found in another's curriculum.

> and the people most strongly insisting to use the title don't practice it

Just because you don't have an accreditation does not mean you "don't practice it".

> Like I said, you can legally use it, but licensed engineers are rolling their eyes when your back is turned.

Good for them. They can roll their eyes all they want, it doesn't make them more right to do it.

Sort of; they were likely never engineers in the first place. Engineer is a licensed profession, like physician or lawyer. You can graduate law school, but that doesn't make you a lawyer; passing the bar does. In the US, it depends on the state, but the easiest path towards licensure is to graduate from an ABET-accredited undergraduate program. Some allow you to proceed to licensure without that, but it requires extra experience to compensate.

ABET does accredit international programs.

> ABET does accredit international programs.

Some international programs. They don't have nearly enough capacity to accredit every single international engineering program all over the world. I'm sure they have the major ones down, but there's plenty that are probably not which still teach engineering.

> Engineer is a licensed profession, like physician or lawyer.

The license only gives you the right to call yourself a Professional Engineer. Like I said before, unless it is illegal to call yourself an engineer without being a PEng and being licensed, then the "licensed profession" part of it really does not matter. A company can require you to be a PEng in order to receive an "engineer" title in your role, but there is still nothing, short of law that prevents you from using it yourself.

> like physician or lawyer.

And they're both different from engineer, because those licensed professions are actually legally enforced, whereas "engineer" is not legally enforced everywhere.

No, the license allows one to offer engineering services to the public and the PE title is granted in recognition of that right. It is generally illegal to call yourself an engineer, but most people are able to use the industrial exemption. Nevertheless, in using the industrial exemption one is not offering engineering services to the general public. I don't know what happens if you tried to use the industrial exemption but offered services to the public, but I think it's prohibited.

This all varies between states, but in general, if you for example started a software consulting firm called Vlad Engineering and the principals were not licensed, your local licensing board would likely have beef with you. If you were a software engineer at Vlad Consulting you would probably be okay.

The bottom line is that it's tricky to navigate, and so it was recommended at my school we avoid using engineering anywhere unless we had our PE license.

http://www.growthengineering.co.uk/

"Engineer" is legally enforced everywhere. If you don't believe me, try to get a building built without having a licensed Civil Engineer sign off on the blueprints.

That has nothing to do with enforcement of calling yourself an engineer. That's saying that people enforce who can build buildings.

> Curricula in mechanical, chemical, electrical, and biomedical all include solving DEQ and PDE systems

Civil?

Don't know about them.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com