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Comment by datamatt | Hacker News Reader

Not actually the same family, typically the new owners will "adopt" a son, who is just the highest ranking manager: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_adult_adoption

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If I recall correctly, the grandfather of the current Zengoro was adopted. So since then, it's pretty much straight. He showed me the pictures of his family. To his grandmother, who was "originally" Houshi, if you will, but not his biological grandmother, he refers to as "my grandma".

Houshi have a different understanding of family than we do. For them, "family" and "business" are the same thing. For example, the daughter never calls her parents by mom and dad while in the hotel, but by their titles (Okami and President)

[edit: got a bit confused who did what with grandma]

I'd class adoption as the same family.

The title is correct because the title doesn't say "same bloodline for 1,300 years".

If you are arguing otherwise, feel free to tell all the adopted people out there that they really are not part of their respective families, and those who adopted others that the people they've adopted are just strangers in their homes.

Adopted and raised by those parents? Sure, same family.

"Adopted" when you're 40 and happen to be their top manager? Not so much.

The Roman emperors used to adopt the next chosen emperor and pass him the family name "Caesar", as did Julius Caesar, probably without trying to create a tradition, with Octavius.

Only if there was no son to inherit the throne.

No -- this was done by the 'Five Good Emperors' (Nerva, Trajan, Hadrian, Pious, Aurelius) and done more out of the lack of suitable male Heirs than of a notion to go outside the blood line. The Five Good Emperors ends to Aurelius, who -- coincidentally enough -- was the first to name his son as Heir. His son was Commodus, and was (by the account of contemporaneous, biased sources) a bad emperor -- although there is thought that many of his evils were embellished by detractor historians.

Otherwise, the title of Imperator/Augustus went to male blood heirs or usurping Generals (in one case, to a wealthy man who bought off the Praetorian Guard).

Thank you for clarifying.

There's an interesting HN touch in that article:

"Some males are now joining dating sites specifically made for men looking to become Mukoyōshi, and be adopted by families who need a male successor for their businesses."

Are they really "dating" sites if the purpose is just to get adopted as a male successor?

I think typically they would also marry the daughter of the current owner.

i.e. dating with an ulterior motive. See: Golddigger

I think the motive is the exact opposite of 'ulterior'.

I can imagine the pitch to VCs: "It's Monster meets OkCupid!"

Maybe you're onto something, OKCupid has a better track record as the method is actually based on some type of observable patterns. :)

How is that not actually the same family?

AS a father of three adopted children I ask the same. Adoption is family even if they look different then your own skin they are family.

Nobody's disputing that, but the Japanese custom for adult adoption is something else entirely: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_adult_adoption

So if you adopt a child and raise it as your own and that child takes over your business, is it still a "family business? Yes.

But can you say it's still a "family" business if it's gone through the Japanese custom of adult adoption? Arguably yes, because that person was brought into their family as a legitimate heir.

On the other hand you could argue that it's no different than a family business being sold in the western sense, it's just that in ancient Japan you couldn't really buy and sell businesses, they were owned by clans, so this was their mechanism for ensuring business continuity when there was no suitable male heir.

I'm not taking a stance on whether it's still a "real" family business, but it's important to understand that what the Japanese mean by "adoption" in this sense is not at all what westerners mean when they use that word.

Another reminder that Japan extended their feudal period longer than most.

Then again, the west took on the practice of putting the founders name on a corporations...

My adopted Children when Adopted (10, 20, 22) They were in my house at 7, 11, 15 from the same mother. LONG story but I ended up adopted the two older ones when they were ready which wasn't till they were adults.

Nobody is arguing that adoption per se isn't the same as "the same family". The practice being described here is that the adoption is specifically adopting someone _because_ they're going to be the next owner of the business. I'm sure you can see that there's a salient difference between your case of adopting to build a family vs the case here of a 65 year old guy adopting his 50-year old successor as part of a tradition of that business.

I don't think anyone was arguing that adopted children are any less meaningful than biological children, but if a 60 year old business owner adopts a 40 year old manager who works at his company that's really not the same thing.

Exactly. This isn't some love relationship, it's about keeping the family name in the company. The manager loses his family name but gets the perk of inheriting a company out of it.

It depends if it includes breastfeeding and snugging or not.

It is the same family, though it would be more amazing if they adopted and raised younger kids kids without consideration for whether they would inherit the business or not, and still manage to keep the business in the family for 1300 years.

But the act of passing the business down to non-blood related adults for 1300 years without going belly up is amazing.

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