Hacker News Reader

Comment by gambiting | Hacker News Reader

I see what you are saying as similar to the "window breaking argument". Just because a bad activity produces a positive output, doesn't mean we shouldn't fight the bad activity(so like in the example - just because city's glass makers have more work thanks to the vandals breaking down windows everywhere, doesn't mean we shouldn't be trying to stop the vandals).

>>ambitious young people who want adventure but instead find it in playing video games and driving cars fast on public roads.

Come on now, real world is never as black and white as this. It's not like the only decisions in the world a young person can make are "hunting in the wild and learning to be brave" and "driving fast on public roads". I am very glad you had a great childhood - but I also feel like you are romanticizing your experiences and feeling like everyone should have the same ones because they were the only good ones in your opinion. That's called bigotry, no?

View on HN

I'm not against organized mammal control in NZ. I am against ridding the country of mammals completely. My statement was an attempt to show that I believe we have an incredible resource that is largely under-utilized for the benefits it offers people.

Regarding your last point; it depends if you see spending time in the outdoors and breaking laws on public roads as ethically the same thing.

Everyone doesn't need to have my experiences, but if I cant talk about the value of those personal experiences and recommend some of them without it being referred to as bigotry then I'm left wondering what the free sharing of ideas is for? Can I only share purely objective ideas? - Because, unfortunately, I don't have any of those.

Oh god no. I appreciate the ideas. My problem is that you categorized experiences into good ones(as in - the ones you had) and into bad ones(as in - the ones others are having). And driving fast on public roads is not the only point you made and I am not trying to defend illegal activities - and also one could argue that ethically hunting animals stands lower than speeding - but I am not trying to make such point so I will not defend it if you decide to discuss it. You also mentioned people spending their childhood playing games - what if I show you someone who thanks to THEIR experience with games went on to become a programmer, designer, artist - and is now a perfectly happy person? Is their life any less because they have not experienced hunting deer in the wilderness?

I only mentioned bigotry, because this is what happens when someone says "I have experience X, therefore everyone should have experience X because I have had it and it is the best, instead of activities Y or Z which are clearly inferior to my experience X". I am not calling you a bigot - one comment on the internet is far too little to judge that.

I think a charitable interpretation of the grandparent poster is that he wants young people to channel their desire for adventure into not only playing video games rather than for them to not play video games at all.

Well said, thanks

Just for background, there's an ideological divide in contemporary Aotearoa. On the one side are the proponents of "traditional" (pre-late 1960s) white Pakeha culture. They tend to be pro-farming and hunting (good vigorous manful activities), pro-traditional gender ideas and against most/all reconciliation/restitution measures towards the Maori population. This group includes a lot of Aotearoa's wealthiest white families and so has economic strength. Their party (National) is currently in power and supports generally liberal economics.

The other side is critical of these white tropes, and tends to support measure pushing back against whitification of Aotearoa (habitat/native population restoration, promotion of Maori culture, treaty settlements.) This groups is more popular with Aotearoa's middle and lower classes, and their opinions are functionally mainstream. Anybody openly endorsing the attitudes of the former camp are subject to a lot of criticism (although you would be surprised how many white homes are, within private walls, against this consensus.)

Because it's an ideological divide you tend to find this sort of defensive, irritable black and white argumentation when the pro-white side feels under attack. They don't get to express their opinions publicly very much, so they bottle up a lot of frustration.

In case you were, like myself, wondering, "Aotearoa" is the Maori name for New Zealand (originally just the Northern Island).

>They tend to be pro-[...]hunting

Interesting that you describe hunting as something favored by white New Zealanders. Are Maori people against hunting? Do they hunt mammals?

Hunting is a traditional activity among Pakeha farmers and farming communities in Aotearoa. These people came from lower and middle class British communities, and enthusiastically began hunting in Aotearoa because in Britain it was traditionally an upper-class-only privilege. As such it is and has always been primarily been a leisure activity. Nowadays Pakeha culture is strongest in rural areas so the hunting continues and is part of a grid of activities (rugby, agricultural shows, many varieties of sport, other farming-centric activities) which strengthen in-group bonds.

Maori hunted extensively for subsistence, primarily bird and fish species, but this was more trapping and gathering (rope traps for birds, gathering bivalves). In recent times their culture has become more urban-based, relatively young and lower SES, and I think they are more involved and interested these days in urban family/community ties, Marae activities, travel and international youth culture. Maori groups promote the traditional ecology of the islands, and promote the authenticity of traditional Maori food-gathering, but especially given the scarcity of native birdlife, don't actually hunt birds anymore (as far as I'm aware - though shell-gathering is popular).

The university-liberal segment of Pakeha culture that is pro-Maori is generally pretty pacifist and urban, so they don't participate in rural-centric activities like hunting.

I think Maori people in Aotearoa taking up white-style hunting would be like native tribes in America turning into massive baseball lovers.

Are you actually from NZ? Because what you're saying doesn't really match reality. Heaps of Maori people hunt.

News to me, but I haven't spent much time in the North Island so maybe I just haven't seen it. I'm not really a North Island/Maori expert.

So, you're not an expert, but I'm still defensive, irritable (with) black and white argumentation when the pro-white side (presumably me) feels under attack....

I am pakeha but went to bilingual school, am pro treaty settlements, predominantly hunt WITH Maori people, have been involved with Maori society my entire life and my family members are buried in a Maori urupa.

Please be more careful about the snap judgements you make based on a single comment.

Sorry, in my experience white South Island culture is generally pro-hunting and anti-Maori. I've also met plenty of rural North Island people who are cut from the same cloth. I take back the implied characterisation of you but I've seen it many times that when Aotearoa is discussed among foreigners online, Pakeha apologists come forward and start pushing their agenda in a way that sounds very reasonable and benign to those not in the know. And hunting seems to be one of those issues where the apologists feel like drawing a line in the sand.

People tend to assume NZ is this cute little nation where everyone agrees on everything, so everyone is on the same page when it comes to stuff like hunting, environmentalism, etc. So I would say it's useful to have it pointed out that there are big differences of opinion.

Anyway it's interesting to know that there are Maori who hunt, that's something that I'd like to learn more about.

> Anyway it's interesting to know that there are Maori who hunt, that's something that I'd like to learn more about.

http://www.maoritelevision.com/tv/shows/hunting-aotearoa

...there are Maori in the South Island too. You speak so assuredly from a position of cluelessness. :/

You ask an excellent question. Maori people do heaps of hunting, I have no idea what the person you're responding to is on about.

Hell, the best hunting show is on Maori television: http://www.maoritelevision.com/tv/shows/hunting-aotearoa

Reply on news.ycombinator.com