Hacker News Reader

Comment by peteretep | Hacker News Reader

That's a pretty impressive starting salary range for a junior.

a) You must have interviewed exceptionally well, and be in practice "not really" a junior (which would imply Ada are doing an incredible job, and is freakin' awesome), or be bringing to bear some other skills

and/or

b) Salary range where you are is broken

You said the range you got offered was $75-$95, which in Great British Pounds is £47-£60,000, and I've absolutely no reason to doubt you. BUT: you can get a reasonable senior developer in the most expensive city in the world (London) for £60,000.

View on HN

Well, looking at her CV, she has a BS, and some real world experience. Couple that with self-motivation, and the interest to do another year just to get started in CS -- that would probably place her in a different category from "went to Uni, graduated". Which is one definition of junior dev.

That said, looking at her github profile, it does give me a "junior dev" feel (not really a bad or good thing, in and of itself. Better to hire a promising junior dev, than a poor "senior" dev, I think).

If nothing else, I'm much more looking forward to my own prospects if/when I start looking for a job in earnest...

I've never quite got the salaries in the UK/London -- those that I've seen advertised or on sites like glassdoor. They seem unreasonably low?

Granted, I'm looking from Norway which has a decidedly strange/flat pay structure -- starting salary for a junior dev here would (probably?) be around a little below the median wage, to 1.5 the median wage (across all categories of jobs[1]) -- and the effective ceiling not that far above.

I do find it interesting that with her clearly limited programming skills/experience, she was valued so high. I don't think it is unreasonable, but it doesn't really match what I've seen elsewhere -- I'm surprised so many companies clearly seem to see what they need, and are willing to compensate accordingly.

[1] http://www.ssb.no/a/aarbok/tab/tab-190.html Norwgegian table. So for a single person 25-30 years old, in 2011, median income after taxes come to 264 200 NOK, or ~37K USD/23.5K GBP. Almost double that for income before tax.

The pickyness about jobs doesn't exactly scream junior dev either. Most I know would be glad to just get a job, and then after they've got some experience on their CV, they can be picky.

This is purely UK vs US difference: From my experience, companies in the US can pay over $100k to fresh graduates. The same companies pay 30% less in the UK. So the $95k translates to $40k, which is what you'd expect.

I'd say it's US vs rest-of-the-world difference.

I recently applied to a senior dev position at the Tokyo branch of a certain American company, which shall remain nameless. They pay 120~160k in the US. They offered me 60k.

I don't think you can lump Tokyo in with the rest of "not-the-US", really, because it's particularly bad here IMO, moreso than mostly anywhere else in the developed world. The market is shallow and the hiring managers are generally clueless. If you're a software developer, living in Japan is bad for your career and probably your health.

It could be so, but I doubt it. From talking to Europeans here, and reading about it on the net, after-tax salaries in most of Northern Europe and France are roughly on par with Japan, taking into account the differences in cost of living. Southern Europe is somewhat worse. Note that tax rates in Europe are considerably higher than in Japan. And rent in places like Paris and London is probably more expensive than Tokyo.

Developer salaries in Canada and Australia seem to be better, though they still aren't on par with the US.

Starting out, yeah, but generally in the UK experienced guys go into contracting - which pays similar to top US rates. Thats what I ended up doing after moving here a year ago. My take home pay doubled. That includes a month of vacation, and 7.5 hr days.

London software salaries are low compared to the Bay Area or Seattle. Comparable or a little bit lower than Toronto software salaries.

A couple of years ago Amazon would make a standard offer of 90k USD (~55k GBP at today's rates) to new graduates hired as SDE in Seattle, plus a 10k bonus if they stayed a year.

Of course there's differences like Amazon giving everyone only 10 paid vacation/annual leave days, 15 days being considered pretty good, annual bonuses aren't common at the larger U.S. companies, etc.

I personally think London is worth it, but the money difference is there.

My jaw always hits the floor when I see the salaries they offer in SF/NY. Then I remember that working in the UK I typically get twice as much paid annual leave as most people in the USA, usually with the option to purchase more leave. I think I'll always choose more time off over more money.

And there's the matter of what to do with the time off. Prague, Rome, Budapest, Barcelona being a two-hour, £20-40 flight away is difficult to value but a big difference.

I hear this a lot from my foreign friends. It's 2014 and even Ryanair don't sell £20 return flights any more (£30-40 is pushing it. E.g LGW-DUB in Feb is £40).

Also, the Eurozone isn't all that cheap any more. Prior to 2008, £1 bought you 1.4-1.5 EUR. Since then it's typically been between 1.1 and 1.3 EUR. And prices have risen all over Europe.

Even if you found a £20 flight, it'll be the cheapest part of the trip! If you do anything other than a backpacking budget, your flight cost will be eclipsed by: baggage fees, travel to/lunch at the airport, accommodation, transport, entertainment and food.

It starts with a cheap flight and before you know it you've spent £200-400/pp for a couple of days away.

I meant one way prices. To my Canadian ears £40 one way is still very cheap.

Berlin, £50 round trip in March, £40 in January. Copenhagen, £50 in March. BCN, £50. Porto, £58.

Stansted Express, round trip 30 days in advance, £16.

Baggage fees, why? For a week or less, even the aggressive easyJet carryon size is sufficient.

Lunch at the airport... it's like you're trying to make a trip expensive.

Food... yep, you'll have to eat anywhere, and nowhere is that cheap. Considering UK grocery prices it might well be cheaper to travel. Dinner for two incl beer, tax and tip for 449 CZK? That's cheaper than cheap places in Seattle.

Was it cheaper in 2007? Maybe, I wasn't here, can't comment. Is it still miles better than travel options out of SEA or SFO? Yep.

(Cheapest SEA-SFO return is £113. SFO-SAN £107 return. Anywhere more unusual is pricier. LON-KEF is half the price of SEA-ANC. London-Split, £142 round trip, occasional £81 deal. SFO-HNL £290 round trip, London-Gran Canaria is £156 return, occasional £75 Norwegian deal, and it's not like Hawaii or LA or even the resorts in Mexico are particularly cheap. Well, I suppose it's cheaper to go to Vegas from SF.)

From SEA, you have the whole west coast at your doorstep, but you'll need a car and time to enjoy it. It's also a good place to get to Beijing or Tokyo, though it won't usually be cheap.

After spending 4+ hours in an immigration line the last time I went to London via heathrow, I am probably never visiting there again.

> From SEA, you have the whole west coast at your doorstep, but you'll need a car and time to enjoy it

Well luckily you'll have lots of time off from your Amazosoft job... What's the most exciting weekend city break out of Seattle, Portland? SF if you fly, and the selection tapers off after that. Weekend breaks are a lot more fun when you choose from 20 places to fly to for under a hundred.

> After spending 4+ hours in an immigration line the last time I went to London via heathrow, I am probably never visiting there again.

<snarky comment about U.S. immigration> Heathrow is fast with EU passport, though as it happens I agree regarding London as a tourism destination

When I was living in Seattle, I would visit Rainer, North Cascade, or Olympic every weekend in the summer; how many cities are 2 hours away from some of the best national parks in the world on 3 sides? There is a reason seattle has the highest sales of sunglasses per capita in the states.

US immigration is fast with or without a usa passport, well, at least it never takes four freaking hours; in Seattle its max 20 minutes even for first time Chinese visitors. Even Bali is only an hour if you don't pay the bribe.

Well that is a fair point. From Seattle you can choose from mountains, mountains, or mountains, from London you have to settle for city, country, or mountains :)

Well, its mountains, mountains, mountains, or mountains, but I don't think the east cascades is organized into a national park (though people go skiing there). We also have country (including that yearly tulip festival thingy up toward Bellingham). In Europe, you'd have to go to the Alps to get anything like that (or Norway for lakes and floating bridges).

If you find cities very interesting, I'm sure London is very interesting. But if you are into the outdoors, the west coast of the USA is actually pretty nice.

> b) Salary range where you are is broken

Depends on the point of view.

I'd say the salary range where you and I are (i.e. not in the US) is broken.

Despite all the talk of "programmers can work from anywhere", labour is still a very inefficient market.

And it seems like Amazon was willing to offer a $20K signing bonus, so add another £13K to that. A junior developer in London would probably feel they'd done very well to get half of that.

I am a junior C++ programmer and I make ~27k USD/year in the UK. Those salaries in US make me question myself what I am doing with my life(but then again, I have mandatory 25 days of paid leave a year + unlimited sick days + free healhcare + have no student debt, so maybe it's not that bad )

That can't be London, can it? £17K would have been low even 10 years ago in the capital...

North East.

...and you work in the games industry, I glean from your other comments. I guess your location and that industry are just about the worst possible combination in terms of salary. Sorry!

Apples to oranges comparison, really. Give up the job security aspect of British jobs and you'll find out companies are more willing to pay numbers close to what's seen in the US.

You have no job security(No right for tribunal) until 2 years in. They can literally make anything up, and fire you for no reason if that's what they feel like.

Still, your year 3 salary is a function of your starting salary.

Looking at the resume I have trouble considering her a "Junior" dev, seems much more experienced than that.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com