Comment by jqm | Hacker News Reader

Comment by jqm | Hacker News Reader

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People with college degrees, in the past, earned significantly more over their lifetimes than those without. But this may or may not continue, particularly for certain degrees where the person may have been better off learning marketable skill and applying it early.

I have a college degree and have never really used it. The jobs I have landed, the things I have done, none of them in any way shape or form are attributable to that degree. And, I graduated college nearly 20 years ago. College was a good place to drink beer and get laid, but really, I think I would have been better off going straight to work. The sad part is, I knew it at the time but my parents were insistant that without a degree I'd be mopping floors for a living. So I listened to them when I should have trusted my gut instincts. I'd trade the degree back in a heartbeat for tuition and interest and book costs alone...to say nothing of the 4 years (ok.. almost 5, I was having a good time but who is counting?) of opportunity cost.

Have to agree with OP. I believe college to be generally overpriced and over rated. Particularly in certain disciplines. I'm about as sad to see law schools going out of business as I would be to see mosquito breeding pools being drained. Maybe some of the potential attendees can do something socially useful with their lives now. (yes, I know...we need lawyers. we probably need mosquitos too. just not so many of them.)

I'm not entirely confident how things will pan out, but here (Denmark) the value of degrees seems to be getting higher, if anything. Not in the sense that a degree is a ticket to a good job, as in the past, but in the sense that not having a degree will shut you out from a wide range of jobs, because it's just so expected now, that it's become like the new high-school diploma. Employers don't care about high school diplomas per se, but they treat not having graduated from high school as a significant red flag. For many jobs university diplomas seem to be filling that role now.

The monetary context is admittedly different because universities are essentially a continuation of the free public schooling system: zero tuition, and you get paid a stipend if you're a full-time student (about $1k/mo to cover living expenses). There's still an opportunity cost in lost earnings vs. getting a job straight from high school, but the delta is less.

The other thing that has been happening is that outcomes (employment/earnings/etc.) have been rapidly diverging between university graduates and vocational-school graduates. The two tracks used to both lead to good employment—in different sectors, but paying well and with job security in both cases. But in the past 20-30 years or so, the vocational schools' employment statistics are nose-diving compared to those of the universities.

You can make the subjective assertion that college was worthless to you personally, and who can challenge it? But a subjective assertion by one person is not data nor is it representative of any population (I learned that in college).

Also, education has many benefits beyond earning money. It's seems absurdly narrow-minded to evaluate college solely by the marginal income gain. Life is so much more and education benefits much of it. I could not write nearly as well, use mathematics, understand science, understand art, understand humanity, be as creative, etc. etc. without the years I spent studying those things.

I can't imagine doing what I do with my high school education. Can someone waste their time in college? Of course and I'm sorry for those that did, but don't impose it on everyone else. I remember most of my peers' intellectual curiosity and how much they learned. Someone could own a computer or raise kids and gain nothing from those things either, but that doesn't devalue my computer or family, or argue that they don't provide great benefits to humanity.

> But a subjective assertion by one person is not data nor is it representative of any population (I learned that in college).

The opposite is also often true: data about a large aggregate population (across all demographics and generations in this case) might not represent the reality on the ground for a precise sample. Circumstances vary significantly and with rapid technological change smashing straight into global economic instability, everything is up in the air.

> I can't imagine doing what I do with my high school education. Can someone waste their time in college? Of course and I'm sorry for those that did, but don't impose it on everyone else.

Based on my experience growing up in the United States, all effort is spent on imposing $30-50,000/year degrees (and debt) on students, instead of realistic alternatives that might be better suited to circumstances.

> Life is so much more and education benefits much of it. I could not write nearly as well, use mathematics, understand science, understand art, understand humanity, be as creative, etc. etc. without the years I spent studying those things.

You could study and understand all of those without going to college, given the right resources (like books and time). In my opinion, it is a person's intelligence and curiosity that matter, not four years in an institution or a degree (I say this from a the inside of the educational system, currently pursuing a PhD myself).

However, what's missing is access to a teacher who can guide you through the subject material, answer questions, show you the pitfalls, extrapolate on topics and give you a thorough understanding of what you are studying. A good teacher is an invaluable resource that you will not receive through independent study alone.

> what's missing is access to a teacher

And peers, and resources such as organization (clubs, teams, classes, etc.); labs, tools and machines, including IT; and the very many information resources that are not yet online.

That's an idealistic view of education. In today's "industrial education system", where each teacher/professor teaches classes of 30-100, I don't think each student gets the attention/discussion time they need. You still wind up doing most of the work yourself (at least I did).

Part of the reason I am throwing down $60k is to learn from other people, not books.

Plus I get an international exchange in Hong Kong and one year's paid industrial placement, it would certainly be challenging to secure those things by myself (though that would be an education in itself).

> In my opinion, it is a person's intelligence and curiosity that matter, not four years in an institution or a degree

People do not come out of the womb with their levels of intelligence and curiosity set in stone, and they're still quite flexible at 17/18 when they hit college. Even the most naturally intelligent and curious 18 year-olds do not have the free time, motivation, and access to experts that enrollment in a university provides.

My own practical experience (from looking both at myself and many others) is almost the opposite. I think one of the great fallacies of modern education is the idea that you can take an idiot (for lack of a more appropriate/PC word), put them through school and they'll come out a genius. IMHO, practice shows otherwise.

The problem is that there are lots and lots of people that comes to you and say "college is not worth it because of..." and you dismiss every one of them by saying "that's just one anecdote, there's no data to support it".

Well, the data is coming to your door, but you refuse to look into it unless it is neatly prepackaged by a figure of authority. I wonder if when you read the prepackaged version of the current trends, 30 years from now, you will say "oh, I was wrong after all... who would have though that back then!"

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