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Comment by sliverstorm | Hacker News Reader

Your remarks about "divisive ethic-neuveau-ghettos" with "communities insulating themselves rather than assimilating" just makes it worst.

Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country. We aren't the Borg, but we would like to see you learn at least a little English, accept your new country, and generally participate.

You are already most of the way there- you speak English. Your parent is reacting to communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia, including attempting to completely reshape government in Elbonia's image.

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How many tech companies apply for H1-B visas for developers who are unable to speak any English at all?

Your post has such an overwhelming air of nationalistic, racist sentiment. "These foreigners come over here, they don't even speak english, and they take all our jobs".

The reality is that most of the foreign developers I've met speak english and communicate at least as well as other developers we've hired here, and oftentimes speak even better english.

Remember, not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries - the Ireland, Britain, Canada, Mexico, Germany, etc.

You're generalizing all immigrants into this offensively racist image you've got in your head, and it doesn't make any sense at all. Perhaps there are people like that where you live, but by and large the H1-B visa holders are well-educated, skilled, and speak English as well as people who have been American citizens for decades.

Good lord, I'm not generalizing anything. I was explaining further the specific phenomenon (which does occur sometimes) that manticore_alpha was talking about. I didn't apply this phenomenon to anyone, nor make any statements about policy nor how it ought to impact policy... Or does the simple description of a phenomenon which sometimes happens, now mean I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag? I am in complete agreement that this phenomenon is very unlikely to happen with H1B workers, and I am completely familiar with the fact that many immigrants are well-educated, speak excellent English, and fully integrate into American society.

The reason is because it's typically ignorant xenophobic racists who complain the loudest about x or y group not assimilating.

Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells.

Let's step back a minute: what is the big deal with people attempting to preserve their culture when they come to the US? Isn't it a free country? And materially I don't see how it harms anything because the American culture, derided thought it may be by some, is actually extremely alluring and powerful, so even if the parents are nostalgic for the old country the kids are going to gravitate towards assimilation. Where is the harm?

This is a really great example of how powerful the dog whistle techniques used by racists can actually be.

Your instincts picked up on something from silverstorm's comment, but a lack of concrete evidence made it very difficult to say out loud what you were actually thinking. You were forced to go from:

this offensively racist image you've got in your head

All the way back to:

Now I don't think this is you, but that's just the way the argument smells.

I went into silverstorm's use of dog whistle techniques a little deeper in my comment above, but the evolution of your exchange with him really demonstrates how effective it can be as a tool for perpetuating racist views with immunity from criticism. It is a strategy based on controlling the conversation and playing off of several deeply ingrained societal tendencies, and it works.

What? I think you have me confused with someone else.

You're right. Apologies.

Saying "You" when not addressing anyone in particular is a classic dog whistle technique. Everyone in the audience knows exactly who you're talking about, and plausible deniability is preserved for future accusations of racism/bigotry.

Of course, silverstorm did not actually explain anything at all. All he did was repeat a few standard dog whistle arguments used by racists with a couple of geek culture references thrown in to pander to the audience.

Let's take a look.

1. Appeal to imaginary "social contract" -- an attempt to establish a criteria for who should be accepted into society based on some vague, unspecific standard. Used in various forms by dominant demographic to argue against immigration.

2. "Learn to speak English" -- Good to see this is still being used. Incredibly high reliability as an indicator of racism, almost to the point where I expect it to soon fall out of favor among racists. [0]

3. Warnings of radical change to society ("attempt to create Little Elbonia", "completely reshape government") -- A common, highly effective technique based on natural human fear of the unknown and preference to status quo.

And of course, silverstorm's response to being challenged was equally standard -- repeated reference to "phenomenon" to avoid potential challenges to assertions, it's only a few bad apples ("a phenomenon which sometimes happens", "many immigrants are well-educated"), preemptive dismissal of direct accusation as self-evidently absurd ("I'm a jingoistic, nationalistic, racist dirtbag?").

[0] See, e.g., Lee Atwater 1981 interview for more on evolution of racist rhetoric and its adaption in response to public awareness of true meanings. http://www.thenation.com/article/170841/exclusive-lee-atwate...

If I'm arguing, what am I arguing for? Because it isn't less immigration. If I could have my way, we'd abolish H1B's and Visas and instead simply grant citizenship to basically anyone who wanted it (excepting, I don't know, internationally wanted criminals?).

Well, maybe there is still a place for visas if the person only wants to work in the US for a while and their birth country does not allow dual citizenship. But that's beside the point.

As for integrating, even people who completely refuse to integrate can be here- that's fine. Personally, I just (selfishly) want them to integrate, so I can meet them and talk with them. It's no different from the way that I want to be friends with my neighbors. I'm not pissed if they don't want to be friendly- just sad.

I was just trying to acknowledge that complete and total refusal to integrate does happen (some of my friends growing up had parents like that). That doesn't inform my opinions on policy- they are still welcome to be here.

you are accusing someone else of racism but at the same you make this comment "not all H1-B visa holders are dirt-farming Indians who read Ruby on Rails for Dummies in their native language and got tired of farming themselves out on glance for $10/hr. A lot of them are from well-educated western countries" . So only western countries engineers are well educated but Indian developers are dirt-farmers ?

That doesn't actually have to mean that all Indian developers are dirt-farmers, which is hyperbole itself, it's just playing to a stereotype to make his point which was the opposite. I'm not sure you should really cling on to the racism card.

From the same vien I'm from the UK but have been approached a couple of times by US companies wanting me to relocate. Typically they tell me money is of no concern, they just deperatly need good people. I'm not convinced they'll save money or get better results by shipping me over from London but I suspect this has more to do with ignorance of the recruiters than malice or conspiracy.

Since when?

The first three generations of my family in America spoke German. My home town was basically a group of people from a German town who up and moved to start a new town in the Midwest and went on living there as if nothing changed. Hundreds of Midwest towns and cities started the exact same way.

Why is it different now?

Because it's only ok when white people do it.

Neither is more 'right' than the other, only that it's pointless to criticize people who are long-dead. It's important for people to realize that European immigrants did (and do) largely the same thing as other immigrants that people often criticize for not learning English, but we can't change the past.

I don't believe these feelings are necessarily entirely rooted in racism, as I've heard plenty of people in Chicago complain about Polish immigrants unwillingness to speak English. I think it's more likely the feelings are a mix of racism, classism and additionally a sense of pride in American culture.

This is really a contract that some Americans would like to impose on other Americans.

The U.S. is a free country; that's the social contract. People are free to live where they want, associate with whom they want, and speak whatever language they want. Other people are free to accomodate them to the degree they wish, or not.

But the idea that you're not "really" American unless you fit some predefined set of characteristics is just a nasty attempt to impose one set of values on everyone.

You are right. In America we deplore things like bribery, oppression of women, caste systems, rule of law, human trafficking, honor killings, etc. We will impose that social contract on anyone who migrates here. Even if you are Sir Elton John, you are just Elton John here. If you bring slave servants to the US and enslave them here, as has happened, you'll be thrown in prison. It's not about language.

> In America we deplore things like [...], rule of law, [...]

Is that supposed to be in there, or did you mean something else?

oops, was too early when I typed.

> Part of the "social contract" when you immigrate to the US is to at least make an effort to join your new country

Huh? What social contract are you talking about? Don't use quotes as a goto escape. If there was actually a social contract, then in the valley we'd all be speaking Chumash, Mojave or something like that.

Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/84/

> "communities of people who immigrate to the US, learn not one word of English, turn inwards and attempt to create Little Elbonia"

TBH, it's also not so uncommon for Americans in Europe to make no effort to learn the local language, and to seek mostly the company of other Americans.

How much of an issue within the tech industry, or the visa type that is being discussed in the OP?

I can't understand that attitude. The whole point of moving to another is to embrace the new country and learn from the experience.

There is a lot more to the US than learning English. This is not just a change of address.

I can say for myself, if I ever move to the US, I'd probably be end up as involved in politics as a non-citizen can be.

Exactly. We've already seen Islamists try to enforce sharia in England; if we had wanted a theocracy, we would have let the Christofascists take over long ago. And before anyone goes claiming oppression of differing cultures, the secular culture that is America is precisely the root cause of why many people want to to move there. Others in this thread have already mentioned things like misogyny, homophobia, etc, that while it's not a solved problem in America, isn't nearly as bad as it is in some other countries.

From where I sit (Europe) America does not look like having a secular culture at all. Sure, you have the separation of church and state enshrined in your constitution, but in practice the country seems way too religious.

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