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Comment by Strang | Hacker News Reader

I see people complain about waving at a four-way stop all the time, and I really don't get it. I wave people through at four-way stops all the time, for the simple reason that it can be hard to tell who arrived first. Especially with rolling stops and the like.

So rather than assume that the other drivers have come to the same conclusion that I have, I make it explicit by waving. Sometimes it's a little confusing if they try to wave you at the same time, but that's life.

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I assume they mean when it's clear who arrived first. As a pedestrian, I hate cars waving me through when I clearly get there ~2 seconds after they do.

In general I hate when cars try to wave me by (as a pedestrian) w/ little regard to the total situation. I realize they're being nice but often all they're doing is making a bigger mess for the bigger picture. I always try to wave them along instead, but sometimes they're insistent, and I can almost hear them grumbling "why won't this dummy go?" ... sorry, it's because you're a) holding up traffic behind you and b) I couldn't anyways as there is other traffic I'd need to cross.

Yeah. Never wave pedestrians through. It's faster for everyone for you to zip through than for me to wait for you to slow to a complete stop (like hell I'm walking in front of a moving car). I've had people stop at a green light(!) while I'm waiting on the side of the two-lane road for the crosswalk signal to change. I just stood there and stared until the light changed and they missed their green. I'm not going to cross into traffic because you don't respect the rules.

In a lot of countries and at least in California, according to the DMV handbook, pedestrians have the right of way, whether in marked or unmarked crosswalks. Cars are required to let them pass first, who arrived first is irrelevant there. Waving at them is only a polite redundant sign.

Pedestrians have the right of way in crosswalks UNLESS there is a signal; if there is a signal, the pedestrian only has right of way when the signal allows them to cross.

In WA where I am, and I believe in CA, standing on the curb facing the crosswalk != using a crosswalk. Standing around looking like you might use the crosswalk someday doesn't mean anything; using the crosswalk (and having right of way) starts only from the moment they step off the sidewalk. The WA code makes this pretty clear; CA uses the specific phrase "withinin a crosswalk" which makes me believe the interpretation is the same there.

So waving through someone who's not actively crossing is not correctly yielding the right of way. OTOH, drivers should bloody well expect pedestrians to start crossing in front of them when you haven't stopped yet (both states say that a pedestrian may not step out if there is inadequate room for the car to react and stop; by the contrapositive a pedestrian may step out in front of a car if there is adequate distance.)

The exception being a situation where there's not going to be a space behind you. If they're going to be waiting for someone to stop, and it looks like they've been there a while, waving them through can be reasonable.

Always be mindful of the people you're going to be making wait, though.

Agree 100%. Pretty much the only time I get honked at as a cyclist is when one of the drivers at an intersection wants me to go through but the other drivers there don't. Chaos and honking ensues, and I'm the only one who's life is actually in danger. So, drivers: just obey the rules as best you can and we'll take care of ourselves. (but please stop blowing through stop signs without looking - even if you don't hit me you may cause a heart attack)

No, I think you're talking about a situation where two cars are pulling up to an empty intersection simultaneously. That's a low-traffic situation. The problem comes when you're at a 4-way stop and people are coming from every direction. Anyone who wants to go through the intersection needs the cars from at least two other directions to let them through. So you, as one person, waving them through is pointless because at least one other person would also have to independently decide to let them through as well. If that doesn't happen, then either the other car listens to you and goes through the intersection and crashes into the third person who didn't wave them through, or you and the other car both end up waiting when only one of you needs to be. Either way, you're being rude to the people behind you, whose trip you have lengthened by the same amount you might have shortened someone else's trip, all the while making the intersection less predictable. Of course, there's always a race condition and potential for deadlock when two cars arrive simultaneously at an empty intersection, and waving people through is a safe and necessary way to solve that. But that's not an issue here, because if an intersection already has cars waiting to go from all four directions, there's a defined order in which they take turns according to the rules.

At 4-way stops in heavy traffic, it's difficult at best to tell the order in which people should go. If there's more than one lane in each direction, it becomes practically impossible.

Imho, 4-way stops are terrible no matter how you slice it: in heavy traffic they're really inefficient not to mention difficult to navigate, and should be replaced with a traffic light. In light traffic they're also inefficient, and should be replaced with a yield from the non-dominant direction.

In Sweden the default rule at an unsigned intersection is that you yield to the right. This means there's a well-defined algorithm for conflict resolution without putting stop signs at every little intersection. Apparently the idea that you could possibly navigate an intersection without signage is absurd to Americans, though.

Actually I'm impressed at how people negotiate when the signs break down. A few days ago, the traffic signals at a major intersection (a heavily trafficked US route and a Minnesota route) on my way to work went completely dark, both roads normally having 55mph speed limits. The intersection had two lanes of traffic on each road plus left turn lanes. Somehow traffic kept flowing. Traffic slowed way down and there were a few hairy moments, but by and large people treated the lights out situation as a stop sign and responded appropriately.

> Of course, there's always a race condition and potential for deadlock when two cars arrive simultaneously at an empty intersection, and waving people through is a safe and necessary way to solve that.

There are very clear right-of-way rules for this situation, and if both drivers can manage to remember those simple rules, no hand signals will be needed.

It's not that simple. There are some situations where you wait, and some where you can go, and there is necessarily a threshold, a point of ambiguity, between them.

Turn without waiting since the other person is highly likely to wait anyways. Problem solved.

> highly likely to wait anyways

Better have good insurance. Defensively driving is the best way to avoid accidents and collisions. Always assume the other party will do something wrong, and you will be far safer because of it.

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