‘Serial,’ Podcasting’s First Breakout Hit, Sets Stage for More | Hacker News Reader

‘Serial,’ Podcasting’s First Breakout Hit, Sets Stage for More

nytimes.com

163 pointsbenbreen87 comments

I've heard that when TV started spreading people thought it would never overtake radio. "Who has time to just sit and watch something?" You can listen to audio while you do other things.

Podcasting is probably my main "media" for the last 5 or so years. I listen to 15-20 hours per week as I commute, exercise, wash dishes…

Right now. As a marginal, unprofitable, poorly understood medium podcasts are amazingly "free." At least some of that stems from podcasting being broken.

Anyway, if anyone is looking for some fertile space to innovate, podcasting is it. Discovery is completely and utterly broken. Even just getting a podcast that you know the name of can be borderline impossible for less savvy users. Podcasting apps kind of suck too. Podcasts struggle to get interaction, which is important for discovery.

>You can listen to audio while you do other things

My biggest problem with podcasts is that I can only listen to audio while I do other things. Running, cleaning the kitchen, driving. If I don't have something to occupy my hands and eyes, then unconsciously I find something, and tune out the podcast.

I'm the same. If I can hear words (talking or lyrics) I tune in to them and totally blank on whatever i'm doing. Podcasts are for when i'm pottering about in the morning making coffee and having breakfast, or the increasingly rare times i'm at the gym.

Luckily I like listening to more obscure forms of techno/electronic music which rarely have vocals in them. Even then i'll get distracted by trying to work out what a particular track was and who it was by. And gosh darn if there's a vocal sample in there I have to go work out where it's from.

That's what 2048 is for!

That's my commuting routine! Problem is, I play a close to perfect game now and it's boring. Any suggestions?

Threes?

Any recommendations?

I'm loving Serial, I listened to nearly all of it today. Occasionally I listen to Startups For the Rest of Us (http://www.startupsfortherestofus.com/) but it's hit and miss if the content is relevant for me. Hardcore History is excellent.

It'd be nice to discover some more.

Slate's "Working" podcast is pretty new but has been excellent so far. 20-40 minutes each week covering the basics of various people's working day.

You'd probably like "Criminal" which is short crime-related stories. Only a few have been produced, but they've been picked up by the Radiotopia folks to do more and more often.

"WTF with Marc Maron" has some amazing interviews with people from the comedy and music worlds, along with short monologues from Marc's twisted mind. The (pay-for) archives are where the best episodes are (Judd Apatow, Louis CK, Ira Glass, Ken Jeong, Ed Helms, Dick Van Dyke, Mel Brooks, Dave Foley, Dave Grohl, Aubrey Plaza, Bryan Cranston, the list is endless) but the most recent 50 are always free. His interview of Robin Williams was incredible, and he just reposted it in the free stream recently.

Also on my playlist: 99% Invisible (stories about the design of things (more interesting than that sounds)), Good Job Brain! (pubquiz-themed trivia show), Ask Me Another (live trivia show), The Memory Palace (extremely rare, but fantastically interesting episodes), Born Yesterday (interesting tidbits from history), The Bugle (John Oliver riffs with a comic colleague from England), StartUp (Alex Blumberg recounts starting his own podcasting company after leaving This American Life), and of course This American Life and Radiolab (if you can stand the style).

Also, check out the big list of podcasts the new label Wolfpop just put out. Lots of good pop-culture stuff: Nate Corddry Reading Aloud, Denzel Washington is the Greatest Actor of All Time Period, The Canon (histrionic arguments about movies), and Maltin on Movies (calm discussions about movies) are the ones I'm trying at the moment.

Podcasts my family enjoys but I've had to cut mainly just for time: Planet Money (NPR/TAL-style explainers about the economy) and the Sporkful (good-natured arguments about the minutiae of various foods).

NPR has a ton of great, well-produced podcasts and radio-shows-made-into-podcasts: Pop Culture Happy Hour, Dinner Party Download, Wait Wait Don't Tell Me, Fresh Air.

Hope that gives you a good starting point.

EDIT: some other podcasts I've listened to but given up for various reasons, but which are definitely worth checking out: The Moth, RISK, Snap Judgment, On Being, Life of the Law (I think).

This American Life, the show that created (I think more or less), Serial, is a great show. 99% Invisible is a great show about design. Radio Diaries is interesting. If you're into super thoughtful discussions about religion, science, meditation, and so on, On Being is fantastic. Other ones worth checking out:

* Radiolab

* Stuff You Should Know

* Studio 360

But - Serial is definitely my favourite podcast of all time. I'm not sure there's anything better out there.

Does anyone else feel that Radiolab is incredibly over-produced? I've tried to get into it several times, but the fast cuts (after pretty much every sentence it cuts to another speaker) somehow make me nervous. I guess I'm just more into longer talk shows.

That's the experiment :)

Radiolab is really an experimental way of doing audio. Jad is a composer and they break all the traditional rules to make it very immersive. Personally, I like it. But, I also like the virtually no production, talk podcasts too.

Here are links that go to MP3 files (versus their webapp players)...

This American Life bookmarklet:

    javascript:var i = prompt("TAL episode number:");window.location=i?"http://audio.thisamericanlife.org/jomamashouse/ismymamashouse/"+i+".mp3":"http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives";

Radiolab: http://feeds.wnyc.org/radiolab

Others:

* Hardcore History with Dan Carlin - only 2-3 episodes per year, but all very long and well-researched. Very entertaining.

* Planet Money - quick, short episodes of interesting money/economics/markets-related things.

* The Lowe Post - if you like basketball. Zach Lowe, from Grantland, interviews various people if note related to the NBA.

Let me double recommend Hardcore History, Dan Carlin is a genius.

Lots from the BBC I enjoy In our Time http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/iot From our own Correspondent http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/fooc More Lighthearted Stuff Infinite Monkey Cage http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/timc and From the qi people http://qi.com/podcast/

Podcasts are awesome for the long tail effect. What sorts of things are you in to? Do a little google searching (don't try to find these using your podcatcher's search) for podcasts related to those hobbies and try a couple. They likely exist, and there's probably one that's worth listening to (sometimes these amateur efforts take a couple episodes to grow on you.)

I really like Spider-Man: I really like the Amazing Spider-Talk podcast.

I like Dave Ramsay: I really like The Dave Ramsay Show (okay, it's just an hour of his daily radio show, but hey, it's also a podcast if I can listen on demand on my iPhone.)

I've come to be interested in the hobby of buying and restoring (and occasionally playing) classic (80s, usually) arcade games: I really like the Arcade Outsiders podcast.

I'm sometimes into World of Warcraft, sometimes into League of Legends, and I have Podcasts for both those games I'll dive in and out of.

I like to write and think about stories, as well as watch movies: I really like the Scriptnotes podcast. I enjoy the candor and outside-my-tribe perspective that Penn Jillette has: I really like Penn's Sunday School.

(Podcasts are a great way to dip your toes outside your tribe, a habit I highly suggest everyone try to develop.)

Econtalk podcast is excellent if you are interested in economics.

http://www.econtalk.org/

The Cracked podcast is really good (http://www.earwolf.com/show/the-cracked-podcast/) -- it's both super interesting and extremely funny. Techzing is also one of my favorites (http://techzinglive.com/) because the two guys who record it have great personalities and banter.

I like University of Cambridge Naked scientists: http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/podcasts/ It's a podcast about weekly new science stuff from new papers nature etc. Usually they call the author or someone who knows his stuff. Podcast is made with PhD students for general public.

If you like (American) politics, Political Junkie and the Political Gabfest are both awesome.

I've been using "Pocket Casts" on Android and really like it. It's got a ton of great features, nice design, and OK discovery. It did cost $4, but I use it a lot.

PlayerFM is also nice, and fits my $0 budget.

http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2mxkje/hae_mi...

I grew up not far from Woodlawn High, attended a neighboring school. After hearing about the trees that were planted in Hae Min's memory, particularly the second tree which was planted behind the school where "Lee liked to flop after an exhausting practice session with the lacrosse or field hockey teams" I recalled doing exactly that every summer after baseball practice (summer league was at woodlawn high) and I was curious to know if the tree giving me shade all those years was the one planted in her memory. So I decided to stop by after work and take some photos with my phone while I was around.

Side note I also went to Sunday School with Adnan's brother - or at least saw him around the campus - did not know any of them personally however. My only memory from the trial days is my parents telling me "See what happens when you have a girlfriend!" (grew up in a similarly conservative household, personally very liberal)

I actively try to avoid 20/20 and Dateline crime mysteries. There are so many of these and they are so engaging, and often without any resolution beyond a "he said, she said". The only conclusion I can draw from them is that crime is often incredibly random and irrational, and everyone has credibility problems, real victims sometimes lie to exaggerate and the justice system is deeply flawed.

But I feel that it's disaster porn; gripping us by appealing to the worst of us.

I was excited for Serial until I realized what it is. I feel for the wrongly convicted, if that's indeed what happened, but I'm not watching/listening to be an activist against injustice. No, I'm just distracting myself without learning anything by absorbing scintillating details and pondering irrelevant mysteries.

To be fair, Serial hasn't really taken a side on the matter, at least not yet. It's really been more about figuring out as much as possible, and doing it in an engaging way. Serial feels very much "about the story" to me.

As for just distracting yourself without learning anything, I feel you there, but at the same time most of us do it in numerous other ways such as reading fiction, or watching movies, so I don't feel for you too much.

The point of it is, it's legitimate snuff for the masses. Same reason SVU is on its 14th season. Noted psychologist Albert Ellis wrote a book on it in the 50's or 60's, when society's itch was mostly satisfied through gristly pulp detective novels. The reader (or viewer, or listener) gets to indulge in graphic death and horror, but also gets to maintain their view of themselves through a narrative that allows them to think of themselves on the 'good guys' side.

I actually think Serial is on the other side of the fence as SVU, Law & Order, and pulp detective novels.

Personally I've had a great takeaway from the podcast, not because of the sordid subject that's at the heart of it, but rather the amount of time and care the creators have spent looking at not just the crime, but also at the system and people that surround it.

Pop crime fiction teaches us a lot of things that Serial has gone to pains to refute - that eyewitness testimony is at all reliable, that people can recall mundane details of their lives at will, that a clear sequence of events is even possible to reconstruct, that the wrongly accused believe passionately in their own innocence, so on and so forth.

Serial has taken the popular notion of interviewing persons of interest, constructing a timeline, and catching people in brazen lies, and turned them upside down to expose the much more complicated behavior of humans underneath, and the fallibility of everything that these detective shows are based around.

The picture that Serial paints is markedly different from that of your typical crime drama, and that is an important takeaway. I think characterizing it as simply a gaudy way to "indulge in graphic death and horror" is overly cynical. In any case it certainly doesn't belong in the same sentence as any of the other crime fiction that portrays police work simplistically.

Indeed. In this era of jury pools being trained by forensic procedural shows to want nice animations reconstructing everything, it is very good for us all to hear how hard it can be to reconstruct the past. Even on things that seem like they should be easily knowable, like "was there a pay phone near the Best Buy or not?"

Learning is not only about absorbing discrete facts. Serial has taught me that there is often no objective truth that is discoverable in the real world.

For any real-world event, and for anyone involved, there are always three truths.

1) The truth, as remembered by the person who experienced it.

2) The truth, as reported and written down.

3) The truth, as it happened.

Any overlap with #3 is going to be mostly coincidental.

I wouldn't describe it as disaster porn. While the stories are certainly compelling as human drama, most of all I find this season of Serial to be a gripping look into a criminal investigation and justice system. It makes me think about the process of historiography, in general.

Serial isn't going to be a crime series. It's just long-form audio journalism/storytelling. The next season will be on a completely different topic.

If this is "disaster porn" then so is all flavors of media.

For some strange reason I thought this was part of Alex Blumberg (also from This American Life)'s Gimlet Media - which he started in August this year, and which he's documenting at http://hearstartup.com.

Anyone know if the timing of Serial's debut was co-incidental, or if there's something happening between the two ex-TIL producers that we don't know about?

I would believe coincidental, as Serial is underwritten by TAL, and to my knowledge Koenig is still considered a producer for TAL.

This seems to be one of a spate of recent articles, e.g. [1]. For a skeptical take, see Marco Arment [2]. Then again, he could just be expressing sour grapes because people with actual skill, money, and time are invading his turf.

FWIW, I have listened to a lot of NPR via podcast for many years, and see a podcast-only version of it as a natural step. At this point, the amateur "three nerds and a microphone" stuff is background noise for when I can't sleep.

[1] http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/10/whats-behind-th...

[2] http://www.marco.org/2014/11/16/why-podcasts-are-suddenly-ba...

I don't detect any sour grapes. The only part of the narrative he has a problem with is the supposed slump with 2010 being the dark ages of podcasting which somehow needed saving from decline. As slow steady rise isn't dramatic, so a troubled history for podcasting is invented to make it more interesting, which is bull.

"the supposed slump with 2010 being the dark ages of podcasting which somehow needed saving from decline"

The inability of any coherent narrative to form is evidence of a really big market. If its too big for any individual to see all of it, it must be pretty big.

For me 2010 is the early boom years of history podcasting. Mike Duncan's "The History of Rome" which was really the history of the roman empire not some sort of municipal thing. 2010 was a great year in podcasting, hardly a "slump".

Edited to add, from memory, in 2010 the Wormwood mystery-horror series was in its 3rd year, Lowell's solar clipper sci fi series had just finished its 4th installment with the 5th on the way, and I remember heavy self advertisement on the TWIT network about the new studio that would open in a couple months... for a dead media it was pretty exciting at the time.

It's strange to me that Marco left out Radiotopia's VERY successful latest kickstarter fundraiser, and generally the incredibly high quality content coming out of that program.

And, just weeks before Serial became a breakout hit, the Infinite Guest network launched.

These are both huge leaps forward in providing actual networks for podcasters, publicly funded, and NOT primarily underwritten by a broadcast show.

Current radio has both talk shows (AM talk radio) and produced content (NPR). Both very popular. No reason they can't both exist in the podcast area. And a popular radio talk show isn't really much more professional than "three nerds and a microphone." At least the podcast has an editing pass.

If you listen to hearstartup.com you'll find Marco investing in Gimlet Media which is all about creating a lot more podcasts like Serial so he's very much in favor of the format.

I only recently started listening to Startup, and haven't caught up with it. It's interesting to see Marco moving from the "creating a podcast" game to the "investing in podcasting" one.

Pretty sure that Marco is investing in Blumberg himself though. He says that in the episode interviews.

"Then again, he could just be expressing sour grapes because people with actual skill, money, and time are invading his turf."

Uh, what? That's pretty disrespectful. ATP is one of the best produced and most popular tech podcasts out there today.

As a follower of "Hypercritical," I listened for the Siracusa for awhile, but the meandering chit-chat and interminable sponsor reads eventually soured me on ATP. Maybe I would listen if I had an hour commute to and from work every day, and needed more background noise.

Me, I love the chit chat. The dynamic of ATP is perfect. I haven't found another chat-type podcast that I can stand listening to every week.

As for the ads, I'm glad my podcast app maps fast-forward to 45 second skip!

A quick plug: for those who enjoy Serial, there's an incredible amount of high-quality discussion about it on the serialpodcast subreddit [1].

The very high level of engagement the show has with some listeners is surprising. I don't think it's typical, but many posters talk about dedicating hours to reading case documents, re-listening to episodes, doing independent research, etc.

[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast

As a counter argument I'd say don't waste your time. It is this close -> || to becoming a boston bomber situation with people making wild accusations and speculating to their hearts content about all manner of peoples private lives and those are the posts that get voted up.

It's hard to disagree when stuff like this, comparing the death of a high schooler to the a conspiracy to assassinate JFK, is on the on the front page.

http://www.reddit.com/r/serialpodcast/comments/2n7m7n/watchi...

I love Serial. But I love more the idea that I live in a world where such a show can exist and be successful.

I would be remiss if I didn't take this opportunity to plug Adam Curry and John C. Dvorak's "No Agenda Show" podcast.

http://www.noagendashow.com/

It's entering the eighth year, reaching its 700th show, and has been entirely funded by producers (active listeners) throughout its history.

No ads. No native advertising.

In the morning!

I loved the original episode this series was born out of: the story of a doctor in North Carolina who takes over the practice of a convicted murderer [http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/492/t...].

I have to say, though, I don't enjoy Serial very much. I'm the only person, it seems. :-) Listening to a reporter (not an investigator) guess and gab about a murder just seems like a waste of time. The constant teasers throughout each episode (maybe he did it? but then, maybe he didn't? and maybe this happened, but then maybe it didn't happen?) are infuriating.

This is to say nothing Sarah Koenig. She's obviously done fine work in her career and is a big part of This American Life, and I'm happy to see any podcast get some attention. I just don't enjoy the show, personally.

I think this is less about one single podcast than it is about the entire medium. Whether you or I enjoy Serial, it's a huge hit and it's turning a lot of people on to the format.

If you're in the mood for a podcast recommendation, check out Welcome to Night Vale http://commonplacebooks.com/ - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welcome_to_Night_Vale

It's worth mentioning that This American Life (TAL) went all out promoting 'Serial' with on-air mentions, airing its first episode and using popups on the TAL website e.g.: http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives.

I think Patreon would work really well for this. I know they can support both monthly an work-released based donation types (with per-month maximums), and being able to pledge a certain amount per episode would make this easy and me very happy that my money was going towards actually producing content.

I gave them $20. I'm curious how much money in donations Serial can get.

I'm thinking of donating because of how interesting I find it, but for me it will all depend on whether the final resolution is definitive or not. If there's no closure it's going to be the most frustrating experience since Lost for me.

You should probably prepare for disappointment and frustration, then.

I made my gift, but primarily to help them break free of their underwriters, and because the show is incredibly strong journalism and a great look at the way criminal justice works. The details of the case, though incredibly compelling, are a side show to how complicated the whole process is.

We've had "podcasting" for well over a decade, the iPod is dead, and this is the first "breakout hit"?

I think mainly because the top of the podcast charts is all existing public radio shows, so they don't "count" as podcasts.

I'd love some data behind the claim that this is podcasting's first breakout hit, beyond the comparison to This American Life's slower initial growth in the form. Is this a legitimate claim to fame, or sensationalism from the New York Times from a writer who seems to be largely dismissive of podcasting in general?

Serial has been an immensely satisfying listening experience. I now look forward to Thursday mornings for it to come out.

+1 It's a good format. The honesty and genuine voice from This American Life - and the episodes don't give you much resolution at the end. Just feels real.

A friend and I are exploring some ideas and around next-generation podcasting (and audio entertainment in general). Early prototype stage. There is a lot of room for innovation, and the market is growing--as this article explains. If you're in the SF area and interested in this area, drop me a line.

Unfortunately nowhere near SF (Middle of England, UK!) but am definitely interested in what you're coming up with if you have any further info anywhere?

Would love to hear everyone's thoughts on this: http://www.crowdmurder.com - Gamifying the investigation of the case from the Serial Podcast.

"Use Real Court Evidence to Solve the Murder of Hae Min Lee Access Courtroom Audio, Build Time-lines, Maps & Suspect Bios. Team up with fans of the Serial Podcast from around the world to help solve a murder.

Every Court Document and Recording We're Publishing Every Piece of Publicly-Available Evidence from Adnan's Trial and building powerful annotation tools"

Wanted to add some other ones I did not see suggested:

Freakonomics Radio - by the authors of the book of the same name

Travel with Rick Steves - podcast by famous travel guide Rick Steves

Dinner Part Download - nice way to learn about interesting facts/random trivia/pop-culture regarding all sorts of subjects which can make for interesting conversation at your next social gathering

edit: meant to post this as a response to the question asking about other podcasts

I know this will get me downvoted but I can't understand the fascination with Serial. Overall I found it quite a boring listen. Too many side paths that amount to not much at all, feel like it could have done with a harsh edit.

But it's production qualities are high quality and so anything that leads people to create more content at a similar level the better !

I think it plays into people's belief that they'll be able to figure out something nobody else has. It's what Sarah is trying to do, and the way she presents the story is shaped in a manner to make you lean one way one week, then completely reverse course the following week. It's smartly executed.

>I know this will get me downvoted but I can't understand the fascination with Serial. Overall I found it quite a boring listen. Too many side paths that amount to not much at all, feel like it could have done with a harsh edit.

I find it fascinating that your criticism of Serial is essentially a criticism of reality. Perhaps this indicates there should be a Law and Order: SVU type podcast.

"I can't understand the fascination with Serial."

Think JFK assassination for the Reddit generation. I know I'm hooked.

I am sorry but that is an awful comparison. Nothing about the two can be compared except the occurance of death. Also there is no conspiracy in Serial.

> Too many side paths that amount to not much at all

Oh gee. Welcome to science. So many many paths in science lead to nothing. Often times years and years of research only to come up empty handed.

Having only read TFA, I'm still unsure as to what the `hook' for this show is.

Listen to the first episode. It's pretty much a microcosm of the entire series.

If we're going to downvote opinions, can we at least be consistent and downvote the positive ones as well?

Please don't post procedural comments about downvoting on HN. They're off-topic, and usually end up being false.

All: If a comment has been downvoted unfairly, simply contribute an upvote and trust your fellow users to do the same. In extreme cases, it's fine to email us about it. But please don't add noise to the threads.

Here in Sweden, the last episode of Filip & Fredriks Podcast[1] was recorded in front of a 16 592 people audience this past June.

To be fair they had quite the career on television before that, but podcasting seems to have become a thing here.

[1] http://www.filipandfredrik.com

I'm absolutely in love with this podcast. I randomly stumbled upon it look for something else to listen to while waiting on new episodes of "Stuff You Should Know".

The story is so engaging. Congrats to Sarah and the team on their success!

In addition to serial, I began listening to http://www.wnyc.org/shows/deathsexmoney/ which reminds me of a more poignant Terry Gross.

Wasn't the Ricky Gervais Show really podcasting's first breakout hit? It got a Guinness World Record and ended up becoming a TV show in both the UK and US.

I think another early podcasting success was Bill Simmons from ESPN. In my opinion, his podcasting success helped build his brand even further and allowed him to launch Grantland.

A more recent podcast to big deals success is Men in Blazers. The two soccer commentators spun their podcast into a 10pm Monday show on NBCSN.

I think that sports podcasting in general is quite a mature format. Though, this probably isn't all too surprising as it is basically a more dedicated form of sports radio.

What about Adam Carolla? He is the current record holder.

If anyone here hasn't listened to The Bugle podcast (I've been a Bugler since the second episode) you are missing out on the world.

This popped up while I am listening to Serial. But I am a bit of a podcasting junkie so not surprising.

First breakout hit not so sure I heard nightvale name checked on the bus 3 months ago.

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