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Comment by dantheman | Hacker News Reader

The actual bill was quite bad and should not have been passed.

For a decent write up: http://www.theguardian.com/media-network/2014/nov/19/how-usa...

I agree with you, but the "quality" of the Senate debate about the actual bill was so utterly low that I think we can reasonably infer that the Senate as a deliberative body doesn't care about Intelligence oversight. Only Wyden, Udall and a few others care at all.

If Udall cares so much, he can read whatever classified documents he wants from the Senate floor with absolute legislative immunity.

Yep, and here's hoping that when he's out he'll explain why he didn't in public.

I believe it would be a good start, and EFF too doesn't agree with you:

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/eff-statement-senate-a...

"We continue to urge the Senate to do so and only support amendments that will make it stronger."

EFF doesn't seem to comment on the provisions of Patriot Act that would be reauthorized by the bill. That is one reason to oppose it IMO. At least, EFF should give me reasons I should sell some liberties again in order to get some others back. I would view Patriot Act finally expiring in 2015 as "a step forward" just as its supporters claim this bill to be for NSA reform.

They did, in a separate article:

Update, Nov 18: The USA Freedom Act does not renew the entirety of the Patriot Act, which consisted of over 100 sections changing numerous electronic surveillance laws. The USA Freedom Act does extend three provisions of the Patriot Act: the "lone wolf" provision, the "roving wire tap" provision, and a reformed Section 215.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2014/11/usa-freedom-act-week-w...

Thanks for the reference. Hmm, Section 215's "business records" provision, that little thing EFF told us the NSA is using "to collect the calling information of every American"?[0] It sounds like EFF prefers to use "Freedom Act" to put some plastic handcuffs on the program, instead of trying to starve it when its justification disappears. EFF has fought against the renewal of these exact same 3 provisions in the past[1][2]; why do they accept them now?!

I guess they project the 215 revisions will be extended in another bill if necessary anyway? So they supported a more minor reform they thought more likely to pass? I wish they'd be more open about the compromise, then. The 100 vs. 3 comparison seems a little oversimplified -- I would guess many of those >100 sections don't have an expiration date, or at least expire on a different date than these 3 (which were last renewed in 2011[3] against EFF's wishes.) I am making an assumption here about what the 100 sections means.

In any case, I'm rather upset they're on the record fighting these in the past, yet now they barely mention them at all, and only in what I see to be a hand-wavy "lesser evil" excuse. I know "perfect is the enemy of the good", but I don't think "Freedom Act" is even all that good.

[0] https://www.eff.org/document/215-one-pager-adv

[1] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/02/epic-fail-congress-usa...

[2] https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2011/02/tell-your-representati...

[3] http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/27/nation/la-na-patriot...

The Patriot Act is not going to expire in 2015, it's going to be overwhelmingly renewed, probably with broad bipartisan support, but mostly by the new Republican majority.

This bill isn't selling liberties, they're already sold, it's just trying to win some back.

Exactly. The freedom act was an opportunity to get at least the tiniest amount of reform. The White House even supported the bill.

There is no way the patriot act will not be renewed. Even a congress as dysfunctional the one coming in will come together to TAKE BACK TEH AMERICAS FROM ISIS.

I tend to agree it will be renewed somehow anyway, but I still can't quite bring myself to wholeheartedly support anything that will renew it. Let them renew it with "minutes to spare"[0] like last time, without the benefit of an Orwellian cover title that lets everyone think Freedom is back again and the NSA has been vanquished. EFF has even said one of these provisions that would be renewed actually supports NSA programs!; see my other comment for links.[1]

I would be open to hearing why the provisions that will be renewed are "not that bad" and worth trading. I'm guessing there are worse things in the Patriot Act that don't even have sunset dates. A lesser evil is still evil, though..

[0] http://articles.latimes.com/2011/may/27/nation/la-na-patriot... [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8638143

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