Uber VP: we could spend $1M to take revenge on journalists
mashable.com
mashable.com
http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/uber-executive-suggests-dig...
BuzzFeed's editor attended this dinner that was apparently "off-the-record", but such terms were not made clear to BuzzFeed, which is why we're even hearing this story. A few prominent journalists/publishers were in attendance, including Arianna Huffington, and I'm interested in what they have to say now that the horse is out of the barn.
But what really fascinates me is that even if Uber made clear that everything was off-the-record...what kind of batshitty, drunken affair was it such that an Uber executive could even think it'd be worthwhile to loudly muse about such a plan, as if no one present would ever leak such an abhorrent discussion. Either everyone was giving off a similar elitist vibe of hear-no-evil-speak-no-evil, or the Uber exec was saying these things jokingly while doing his impression of Richard Nixon. Or this exec is just incredibly stupid.
Edit: Also, Uber investors should take note of how wasteful this exec is. The Church of Scientology did the exact same thing in 2010...but they were able to hire a Pulitzer Prize winner, a former 60 Minutes producer, and the former executive editor of the top investigative news organization...all for less than $10,000 apiece (or at least the editor was, I'm assuming the other reporters received roughly the same rate)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/02...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8622003 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8622088
Down-voted or removed?
One example:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8328493
...notice 2 of 3 replies indicate surprise at how much I was being downvoted.
If nothing else, this is a good reminder to never trust the press. Too bad the press is the only tool we have to keep an eye on the other people you should never trust (politicians, ceos, etc). Instead, you should trust the anonymous internet commenters ! Oh, shit...what just happened?
So, I just saw the comment and told why it may have "disappeared." I never read the OP, and don't intend to waste my time reading it. Apparently, many people don't like that I don't care about Uber. At all. Ironically, that just removed my flagging ability.
eg.
>Christianity causes people to murder and steal, because the perpetrator of a murder/theft was Christian.
Any large group will have a number of bad actors, that is not indicative of anything except the large group being large. Even "interfering with the normal course of competitor's business" was an action of one firm, though it's pretty clear Uber allowed such actions to continue.
and finally "price surges" and "price gouging during states of emergencies." are ethically on the fence. People with a capitalistic bent would not find these immoral. Whether you feel our monetary distribution system is fair is another matter... I would argue that if wealth was fairly distributed (operating on my definition of fair here) then that would be a perfectly moral thing.
All this is to say: You were REALLY trying hard to smear Uber. Just like this article is. Which is really weird, because Uber's done enough things to smear themselves. They don't need help.
"White House background briefings: Good journalism or anonymous government spin?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/white-house-ba...
This is all 'don't quote me on this' stuff.
Attaching names to quotes in these situations is condisered unethical. Seems no different from an ethics perspectiv e than other types of "off the record" commenting (ie, "you can reveal X but not Y).
But maybe somebody can school us (all) on the finer points here if we're reading it wrong.
In other words, Ben was clearly signaling that his other sources could remain confident that he respects the known and accepted rules of engagement, and that he will continue to do so.
However, he will not let a genuine scoop slide by if some high-profile idiot gets up in front of a room with heavy duty media people in it and (drunkenly?) talks — in excruciating detail — about how he'd spend $1 million in company funds to go about personally violating journalists who wrote negative things about his company.
I say "drunkenly" because I have no other explanation for a compound failure of judgement this cosmically bad.
--Seems to be the cliffs note version
Cliff's Notes are distillations, not distortions. Big difference.
I think its quite correct.
(Also, if humor is not your forte, I'm sorry).
That detail makes the author a douchebag.[1]
(And I'm not an Uber fan boy or apologist. Just sayin).
[1] Article source: A BuzzFeed editor was invited to the dinner by the journalist Michael Wolff, who later said that he had failed to communicate that the gathering would be off the record.
I say "if" because if there's one instance in which it seems like a journalist can permissibly break his word of confidentiality (or conveniently neglect to mention to another journalist that those rules apply) it's when a high-profile person stands up and publicly declares his plan for using $1 million in company funds to personally violate yet another journalist who had the temerity to write negative stories about his company.
(Maybe if any there are any working journalists reading this thread they can chime in here?)
In the meantime, the original point stands: there's no sign that Ben knowingly broke the rules and even if there were, it's insane to say that this violation is remotely comparable to the one he was reporting.
Thats a big problem and this bizzare turn of events seems to illustrate it quite well. The uber stuff is pretty lame, but these guys in hindsight almost seem to prove his point. When your journalists are un-ethical gutter dwellers, they lose any moral high ground. The argument that they should face the same scrutiny as there subjects almost starts to seem reasonable.
In this case, it would seem, everything is self-serving to buzz-feed. That creates a credibility issue for them. I could pre-text my way around any confidenctiality restrictions here in 30 seconds--all it takes is the assumption of two (not just one) unethical journalists in collusion. Thats basically what I assumed when reading how one invited the other, wihout disclosure of the ground rules, etc.
The problem here, is not that this happened or that that happened. Its that neither you nor I can tell with any certainty.
And that's why I think the (The Onion style) cynical cliff-note is actually the true story here.
A pox on all their houses.
Journalists who participate in "access journalism" get invited to off-the-record dinner parties and yachting weekends.
Journalists who ask hard hitting questions in the public interest tend not to be invited to the intimate soirées of the elite.
While there are very occasionally ethical reasons for a journalist to talk to a source off-the-record they are not going to occur in convivial social settings.
Anonymity is used to protect the source and to report something of actual interest. Here the source was the story.
http://www.spj.org/ethics-papers-anonymity.asp
http://journalism.nyu.edu/publishing/ethics-handbook/human-s...
> On the record, on background, not for attribution and off the record: These are prearranged agreements between a reporter and a source, which govern how specific information can be used. These deals must be agreed to beforehand, never after. A source can't say something then claim it was "off the record." That's too late. When dealing with individuals who are not experienced in talking with reporters, journalists should make sure ground rules and potential consequences are clear, and then perhaps offer leeway. Of course, if the information isn't integral to the story, a reporter can agree not to use it. If you talk to five journalists, you'll likely get five different definitions for these terms. That's why it's important that a reporter clarify the use of these terms with a source before making any agreements.
From the article: "They’re invited to a background briefing, one of Washington’s most common, and little examined, rituals for the transmission of official spin, talking points and, occasionally, actual news."
http://pando.com/2014/02/27/we-call-that-boob-er-the-four-mo...
http://pando.com/2014/10/06/venture-capital-and-the-great-bi...
tl;dr; Why isn't turnabout fair play?
Also, those articles you linked to are examples of journalists providing commentary around direct quotes or facts/reports about the company. AFAIK, Sarah Lacy didn't dig up and expose personal information about people at Uber nor their families.
It's morally equivalent to saying that you would fund a smear campaign against a judge or juror that ruled against you. It's one small step from making threats of physical violence to silence negative reporting.
The press is considered an independent 3rd party bystander that is a crucial underpinning of any functioning democracy. Making aggressive threats against the press threatens the roots of civilized society, and is "abhorrent" because it's a tactic used by nearly every oppressive/fascist regime.
There is a core difference between threats of violence (such as what is done by oppressive regimes) and threats of telling the truth. And it's a bit silly to call Pando and Sarah Lacy an "independent 3rd party bystander". The entire enterprise is an extremely opinionated anti-tech enterprise - kind of like what the Uber execs proposed building, just with a slightly different target.
It sounds like you are saying the people who call themselves independent media deserve special privileges that the rest of us don't get. Is that correct?
Similarly, she'd probably catch some negative press if she made questionable statements in a GQ article.
So no, she doesn't get special privileges.
If Uber wants to open a newspaper to advance their political agenda, they at least have to go through the pretense of reporting on everything, a la Rupert Murdoch.
I'm sure she might catch negative press - lots of harmless behavior creates negative press. I'm not asking how to manage the media, I have no interest in being a PR flack. I'm asking whether reporting on her questionable statements (the sort of thing opposition researchers do) would be "abhorrent".
Similarly, would exposing and reporting on her personal emails and other parts of her private life (as Pando has done to Evan Spiegel) be "abhorrent"?
You gotta be kidding me!
You really think that journalists should be able to write whatever false, defamatory nonsense they please, free from any consequence?
I would guess you have no experience with journalists.
http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-c...
So are you equating ripping on a public interview with GQ Magazine with this allegation by Buzzfeed? -
> Then he returned to the opposition research plan. Uber’s dirt-diggers, Michael said, could expose Lacy. They could, in particular, prove a particular and very specific claim about her personal life.
What does "turnabout" mean to you exactly?
If the opposition researchers dug up unpleasant things Sarah Lacy said publicly (but are now forgotten), would that be acceptable to you? (This is normally a big part of what such researchers do.)
It looks like it's sourced to a Valleywag article here: http://valleywag.gawker.com/fuck-bitches-get-leid-the-sleazy...
So to answer your question, no, I would not have an issue with researchers digging up things that Sarah Lacy has said publicly, especially if they pertain to the quality and integrity of her reporting. So I guess we're left to interpret whether her journalistic credentials is what BuzzFeed is claiming to be targeted here:
> They could, in particular, prove a particular and very specific claim about her personal life
And the last graf of BuzzFeed's piece doesn't entice us to give Uber's exec the benefit of the doubt:
> At the Waverly Inn dinner, it was suggested that a plan like the one Michael floated could become a problem for Uber. Michael responded: “Nobody would know it was us.”
I've worked in investigative journalism for a few years and have worked on projects that dug up things about people. But never have my colleagues nor I did such work under surreptitious means. We made our identities clear during the reporting, and we printed our findings and allegations under our own names, and we took the criticism that came toward us. As far as I can tell, Lacy operates under the same rules of the game. So again, I ask, where do you see the fair turnabout between what Lacy does as a journalist and what BuzzFeed reports to have heard from the dinner?
Seems analogous to Evan Spiegel's private emails about his frat bro's sex life.
If you are opposed to anonymity, I take it you would similarly complain if a woman anonymously blogged about douchey behavior at a tech company? Much like Michael, she'd be truthfully reporting facts about another person but hiding her identity to avoid a backlash.
[edit: the reason I interpreted the lack of anonymity as being the source of "abhorrence": ...never have my colleagues nor I did such work under surreptitious means. We made our identities clear... ]
What's funny to me is that I've just come back from an event at Stanford where Barton Gellman, the Pulitzer-winning journalist who reported on Snowden and the NSA for the Washington Post, was asked if he ever felt threatened subsequent to his reporting on PRISM and the rest of the Snowden leaks. Gellman says no, he's never felt threatened. Certainly, he's worried about surveillance because he's still in communication with Snowden, and it is clearly in the NSA's best interest to know what Snowden is saying, and to someday intercept and stop him...and of course, the NSA and the White House has objected quite angrily (but publicly) to Gellman's work. But apparently, the NSA is at least professional enough to know that a line would be crossed if they messed with Gellman's life.
And now here I am, on HN, having a quasi-serious debate with someone who thinks no biggie if Uber would retaliate against someone like Lacy, even though Lacy's reporting is far less hard-hitting and substantial than what Gellman has done to the NSA.
I'm trying to determine whether the action itself is "abhorrent" or whether it's only "abhorrent" because the person who discussed it is a tech dudebro that everyone loves to hate.
At this point I'm leaning very strongly toward the latter.
I thought you had something against anonymity because "...never have my colleagues nor I did such work under surreptitious means. We made our identities clear...". If that was merely a red herring, my apologies. I thought you brought it up because you believed it was relevant, and perhaps the source of Michael's actions being "abhorrent".
For example, a human-wielded knife slashing across a human body to cause a bloody and gruesome wound. I consider that action relatively neutral without knowing more of the context.
If the knife is being wielded by a mugger during an attempted robbery, then I consider it to be an unpleasant action.
If the knife is being wielded by a doctor in an attempted c-section, I consider it to be a less unpleasant action, perhaps, even a justified and positive action.
I mean Jesus Christ, do you really enter into these discussions with an objectivity that can't conceive of how events and actions can have different values depending on the given circumstances?
This makes me believe the real context here is "he's a douchbag, now I have a reason for my hatred".
Because there is a big gradient in power between the executives of a multi-billion-dollar venture-backed global company (Uber), and the editor of a small tech news site (Pando). People don't generally like giant companies using their considerable power for personal vendettas.
Because when the knock against Uber is that it's over-aggressive and not sensitive to women, this is the sort of story that seems to strongly confirm that knock.
CEOs are just humans harboring things commonly called "emotions" just like everyone else. They are not the flawless machines that PR wants you to believe. That's why they and everyone else needs some privacy, to just entertain idle thoughts that are neither politically correct nor moral to implement. Those "could spend a million dollars" are basically a white collar version of "I'd love to take them out to the back alley and punch their faces because they make me angry". Even when you know that it would be stupid, criminal and in no way a good way to resolve an issue such thoughts still may pass everyone once in a while.
I generally don't think that holding "public figures" to flawless standards is a good thing, it just asks for them to play a game of pretend, putting up a facade all the time.
The moments they think they are in private those fake masks fall. Remember for example the event were Obama and Sarkozy call Netanyahu a liar when they think the microphones are off.
And while I wouldn't call it "dictator shit" since a CEO is not a government official with direct power over his targets, it would certainly be a smear campaign which I wouldn't condone.
I'm operating on the assumption that people say many things that they do not intend to follow up with deeds, especially when they think they are not talking publicly.
I'd be more worried about this if their were some evidence that this was a view (1) meant to be expressed in public (or actually articulated to the public); or (2) articulated in confidence internally in a professional context (which means the intent was real, not just rhetorical; or (3) if other eye-witness testimony comes forth that unequivically supports that this was an actual threat mean to intimidate those actually present (seems unlikely...but lets see).
Without that, this is just another internet shitstorm, manufactured by people who have something to gain financially or who are emotionally invested in maligning this individual or the company.
I don't think you need to give anone the benefit of the doubt here, its more that the evidence doesn't really support the conclusions that are implied by the reporting (at least, yet).
That private space is amply available in the board room. That's a suitable space to say stupid shit as part of a process of working off steam and then finding a better solution or of playing devil's advocate.
A public meeting with journalists without pre-arranged privacy arrangements is not a good place to say really stupid stuff.
"...In fact, the general manager of Uber NYC accessed the profile of a BuzzFeed News reporter, Johana Bhuiyan, to make points in the course of a discussion of Uber policies. At no point in the email exchanges did she give him permission to do so."
- So the CEO has publicly admitted to Calling it Boob-er [2]
- Laughable disregard for Customer Privacy [1]
- Thuggish/Predatory tactics towards Competitors [3]
- Hit pieces & Misogynistic Statements about Journalists who cover them unfavorably
Why are investors falling all over themselves to give this grab-bag of egomaniacal, frat-boy thugs more money?
This is the real question for VCs and investors...is turning a profit the ONLY thing? then stop Bloviating about trying to change the world, about trying to attract more women into CS, etc. etc.
Actions speak louder than words.
[1] http://www.buzzfeed.com/bensmith/uber-executive-suggests-dig...
[2]http://www.gq.com/news-politics/newsmakers/201403/uber-cab-c...
[3]http://www.theverge.com/2014/8/26/6067663/this-is-ubers-play...
Screwing people is bad. Screwing journalists is just stupid. Personally threatening other journalists is borderline insanity. Turning around and lying about the safety of the threatened journalist in a way that involves the abused journalist — who can demonstrate that the lie told to the threatened journalist is a lie — is over-the-moon idiocy.
Buy hey, I'm sure these guys would never lie to their investors, right?
Just yesterday I saw a movie where the kid was accused of shoplifting, said "I didn't do it", then the commercant frowns, the camera focuses, eyebrows darken and he says "!and you're a LIAR!?". From here it sounds quite ridiculous because we know people are failible and they sometimes commit little frauds, which wouldn't have been found otherwise and therefore should be dismissed. Especially so-said "lying" can often be turned over if you look at the context, the lack of precision, the tone and the informal situation.
It doesn't mean the executive is a good person, he seems to have used misogynist comments, privacy tampering and threatened journalists in general. Just lying is not a demonstration by itself.
Also, the relative permissibility of lying has no bearing on whether or not others choose to trust you. The real question has to do with how these guys manage to maintain the trust of their investors when they're so reflexively dishonest with everyone else in their orbit.
- Pushing drivers into subprime loans [4][5]
- Enabling "god view" to allow party attendees to watch "important people" move around New York in real time [6][7]
I wasn't tracking and didn't really know anything about this stuff (except for [3]) until last night. All I knew was that my little sis got gouged a lot with the price point changes and that when I tried to use it, I ran into so many basic issues with the app, including accepting payment methods (they managed to SMS and email ads to me immediately, though) that I resorted to the local taxi apps, which did the trick and I never went back. Now, I may check out Lyft.
[4] http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2014/11/06/3589715/uber-len...
[5] http://valleywag.gawker.com/uber-and-its-shady-partners-are-...
[6]http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2014/10/03/god-view-...
[7]https://medium.com/@petersimsie/can-we-trust-uber-c0e793deda...
I recently tried out Lyft for the first time here in Seattle and I must say, it was a much more pleasant experience than I had previously had in my numerous Uber rides. Do not get me wrong, I have not had completely terrible Uber rides, but I have run into instances where Uber drivers have claimed to know shortcuts to get somewhere, only to find themselves lost all while the meter is running on quite a few occasions, I vote with my driver rating, but still.
Other reasons to use an alternative to Uber like Lyft is the fact the Lyft app lets you give a driver a tip. Too many times I have been in a situation where I had no cash to tip an Uber driver who helped me carry heavy luggage or items because the app lacks a tip feature.
I am not one for jumping on bandwagons, but I really do not like the kind of leadership and image Uber are portraying, not to mention the questionable business practices that were revealed a little while ago.
The power of choice is the strongest message we can send Uber that they need to grow up and be a real business. Vote by choosing an alternative if this bothers you like it bothers me.
I've been a loyal Uber customer for some time, and have defended them in the past, but there's an undeniable pattern that's emerged indicating a company culture I'd rather not support any longer.
This one links to a Pando post by Sarah Lacy, the journalist being threatened. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8622187
This one links directly to the Buzzfeed report. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8622003
Obviously, this doesn't excuse their behavior. But it does explain it. In heavily-regulated markets, nice companies are selected against.
We can differentiate by looking at another highly regulated market: short term housing. AirBnB certainly isn't angelic, but I think it is fair to say it doesn't come close to Uber in pure reprehensibility.
We should be shaming companies that try this, even if we like the disruption. People slinging shit at each other just lowers the standards for everyone, and makes everything slightly worse.
There are plenty of disruptive companies that are successful without acting like pathetic children.
In this day in age, there is almost no consequence for starting social media mobs against people for the sole purpose of silencing opposing viewpoints.
#vergegate
Regarding Uber, I've switched over to Flywheel in SF & Seattle and am quite happy with it so far. Price is a little higher (except when Uber's surging), but it's a worthwhile tradeoff for me at least (and the drivers, at least so far, always know where they're going when I give an address or crossstreet and don't drive with a GPS in front of their face).
Which is why I'm not surprised to see former TechCrunch tech-drama bloggers Sarah Lacy and Paul Carr stirring the pot in a CrunchFund/Arrington backed venture.
What? In what world is what is said here OK? In what universe are we fine with a company going on smear campaigns against a reporter's personal life in response to criticism of the company and its tactics? In what dimension is Edgar J Hoover approved tactics suddenly OK, and a multi-billion dollar company joking about attacking specific people not absolutely repugnant?
There are many journalists who simply do not do adequate research. In the age of one billion blogs, there simply is not the time or money to bring all slander, defamation, and libel cases to the courtroom. Many "journalists" or bloggers simply do not know who they are hurting or what damage they are doing (doing legitimate damage is fine, propagating false info is not).
Edit: if you disagree with me - totally fine, just let me know what you think - I like to hear alternative viewpoints! :)
There are a lot of lazy, opinionated, hacky journalists out there, certainly. That you seized upon someone discussing revenge fantasies towards a particular journalist to air your problems with journalists as a class of people is problematic and not at all classy.
If anyone holds the idea that the fundamental problem in journalism today is that journalists are insufficiently deferential to the rich and powerful, that idea is laughably wrong.
If anyone holds the idea that the world would be a better place if journalists were MORE afraid of the negative personal consequences to them of writing stories critical of people who are rich or influential, that idea is also laughably wrong.
I don't think that the CEO of Uber needs a white knight.
While it is possible what he said was taken out of context slightly, the fact anything was said along these lines paints the picture of someone who should not be in business. What company does NOT have bad things said about them? We all live in a free country where journalists are entitled to their opinions just as much as everyone else including Mr. Michael. But the harsh reality is people in positions of influence or power whether it be a company or political party do not have such luxury, such is the case for Emil.
Sure Emil's views might not reflect Uber as a company, but because of his position, it comes back on the company. This is the kind of stuff that competitors of Uber can only dream of. Emil has made Uber look bad by association, in the eyes of the public, Uber might as well have released a press statement themselves with the same words. I would not be surprised if action is taken against him for this, Uber cannot really afford any more controversy.
Also, just wanted to add, I'm not concerned about journalistic opinions - that is protected by free speech. The only area where I consider such things harmful is where opinions effect things they should not, and objectivity is not used in the right places. What you are "free" to say, and what you should say in terms of being a good reporter are, of course, two different things. An example I've seen used a lot recently was where some reporter gave a pretty good game a low score because he thought it did not portray females strongly enough. I don't read game reviews to hear about political soap-boxing (even though I am pro-equality).
In the same way, I like to read about companies on the basis of their actions, or in the case of their official policies, their words - I'm sure many of us have made some comment that we look back on like "what was I thinking?" -- this sort of "gossip" reporting does not do it for me in that respect. Again, I stress that even in light of this, the VP does not seem like a good person in my book, but I won't let that effect my view of the rest of the company (Uber is doing a pretty good job of hurting its own image regardless ;) )