It's not just the US. Just today the UK press made the lead scientist of the Rosetta mission cry by attacking his SHIRT instead of celebrating his achievements.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11231320/Rosetta-mi...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/space/11231320/Rosetta-mi...
His shirt is the kind of thing that keeps women away from science, so the fact that he publicly acknowledged his error will make other scientists more consciously think about inclusivity, helping science in the long run.
More likely this type of overreaction and hysteria will keep free thinking individuals out of science.
Women don't need thicker skin. No man or woman should be criticized for how they dress.
misunderstanding is all yours. Equal sexism results in worse experience by the members of minority. Equal experience would necessarily require lower sexism displayed by the members of the majority - read the Petrie multiplier post again if you don't understand that statement. Thus push for equal experience in a male dominated environment is an equivalent of push for the males in that environment to display lower sexism than the women in the same environment. In other words it is an "attack on men".
>I posit to you that there is no reason why it shouldn't be zero.
And there is no reason why people shouldn't violate red light. In theory. They do it in practice.
Thus, while I think that lern_too_spel is incomplete, in that some men may also stay out of science for these reasons, I strongly object to your name calling. I am not "weak" for my decisions on the sort of work environments I will participate in.
Nor do I think that others, women or men, who make the same decision are weak. Yet, oddly, you want to call me and them names for making what I think are principled decisions. That sounds like a back-handed taunt by you to those who stay out of a given workplace for these reasons.
There's of course no clear cut line. Would a shirt using Botticelli's "The Birth of Venus" instead be a problem? Playboy's famous "Lenna" picture for image processing? The full original Lenna centerfolds hanging on the wall? A background screensaver showing people having sex? Or on a related subject, a cross hanging on the wall, along with quotes from "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God", and prayers to start off each workplace meeting? Mounted trophy heads from all of the hunts from various staff outings? A mariachi band walking through the offices every 10 minutes? Unairconditioned offices next to a pig farm and under the approach path to Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson airport?
Each case is personal, and one's personal decision to avoid a certain workplace or even career must not be considered a weakness.
[1] http://www.metalsucks.net/2014/11/13/dr-matt-taylor-dude-put...
This all started with s.o. being offended by it while watching the original interview, but how can you come to such a conclusion based on that? Did the female student's lecture attendance/signup rate plummet since that interview? Is there any kind of imperial evidence that this person's shirt is making female students turn away from science?
I honestly don't understand how it's even possible to get to that conclusion. If there's s.o. interested in a specific field and (s)he witnesses a major scientific breakthrough, then the last thing on your mind would be '...but how could the person be wearing that?'.
If you're offended by it, then ask why this happened in the first place, because maybe there's an actual good explanation behind it.
For me it's in the same category as people saying they don't want anything to do with computers because Turing was gay - how does one thing have anything to do with the other?
I don't think anyone can prove it right now, only find it plausible or probable. Of course that's a long way from proof, but the opposite is also true - can you demonstrate that this shirt, in the context of a wider trend of what people can and do wear, does not affect the number of women in science?
> Did the female student's lecture attendance/signup rate plummet since that interview?
This is disingenuous, I'm sure you know that no criticism of the shirt is because this specific, individual incident would be perceived to be of overwhelming importance for any given statistic, and I think your attempt to portray things this way is a strawman or a horrible misunderstanding. As above, it is the example of wearing this shirt in the context of wider trends in what people do (and wear) that people are criticising. You can still disagree with them, but at least disagree on a point you didn't just make up.
We also can't demonstrate that it was in fact the shirt that made him such a great scientist.
The entire fiasco is not about science, it is LITERALLY the thing that I would want to avoid if I had planned going into this field, and I assume that women also do not want long drawn out discussions about what they are wearing INSTEAD of their impressive scientific achievements.
While the rest of us are busy trying to help provide opportunities for more women to get into STEM careers, there's a whole cadre of privileged, middle class noise generators doing a great deal of harm (or at the very least, not helping) with these sexist stereotypes.
'No, his shirt wont keep women away from science. The entire fiasco is not about science, it is LITERALLY the thing that I would want to avoid if I had planned going into this field, and I assume that women also do not want long drawn out discussions about what they are wearing INSTEAD of their impressive scientific achievements.'
But science does have a sexual abuse problem. Some established male scientists do choose their female collaborators according to taste. Sexual violence does have a tendency of being initiated by men against women.
All this "it's not a big deal" talk is a symptom of not understanding this issue, lacking information and empathy. And this lack of empathy does have an impact.
I dont think you are wrong about this, but painting individual men with the same broad stroke that is frequently is being applied to women to dehumanize them and discount their achievements isnt the right answer to right the wrongs you are listing.
There are plenty of women's issues that are waiting to be championed that are not what amounts to bikeshedding.
"Not all men!"
I would personally be surprised to find out that tattoo artists are the kind of thing that keeps women away from science. I mean, it's probably a rare interaction. Blaming their parents seems more productive.
as an extreme comparison, if it was a woman dominated field and they commonly wore shirts depicting scantily clad men with bulging pants, I think it would impact my desire to enter that field.
I don't know that the parents can be blamed so readily. Here in Los Angeles at least, I've been very dissaspointed with what my classmates consider appropriate.
Feminism is not about being precious, it's about equality (which shirts have very little to do with).
It was a hand-made gift from a friend. He did it to make her smile. In such circumstances I'd probably do the same thing.
It's not like anyone is going to gut the European Space Agency budget over Dr. Wossname's shirt, though.
The shirt was made by a woman who's friends with the guy anyway. He's just quirky, not sexist. We shouldn't label him as such.
Perhaps he genuinely felt bad about what he (probably unthinkingly) chose to wear, the possible message it sends, and wanted to address it?
So sadly, it was the US press that made this happen.
I'm blessed to be ignorant about sexism in Silicon Valley, but in Darmstadt it looks that as a woman you are just fine.
This is a remarkably short sighted attitude. I mean, maybe there is totally no problem with the shirt, but it's just a false argument to say 'I saw some women in science so there is no problem'.
Everywhere should be like that, and I doubt you get there by banning shirts with surfer babes on. Jesus was up to something when he said "But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person." This was in the context of observing the divine commandments. It's the problem I have with overly specific codes of conduct. If you are an asshole you can and will work around the specific stipulations, and you are and remain an asshole.
These feminists are so divorced from reality they are desperate and seeing everything through the prism of their bunk thought-experiments that they have to make literally everything about their imaginary oppression.
Can we have one good news story without trying to make it relevant to your gender-studies major?
A friend made him this shirt. He was wearing it as a tribute since the day was important to him. He got nailed to the wall.
Remember when scientists and engineers could dress how they wanted and be independent thinkers? It's sad to see that coming to an end. This is not a win for science or free thought.
Wearing a t-shirt with scantily clad women (or men) on it is not acceptable in any workplace. Just like watching porn is not appropriate in the workplace.
There is no end in sight for independent thought in science, but the end of thoughtless marginalisation of women is most definitely overdue.
edit: honestly - downvotes for this? Think about what that means.
In fact some of his female colleagues came to his defense on Twitter.
(as did the woman who made the shirt in the first place: https://twitter.com/ellypriZeMaN/status/533287464497332225)
Was the shirt professionally appropriate? No.
Was he "projecting that he was more interested in sex than women in science"? No.
Overstating the case is probably the worst sin in political discussions. It might feel all good to do it, but all it does is make it easy for you to be dismissed entirely.
Get the repressed individuals out of the office and it's totally fine, some people are comfortable in their own skin, some people aren't.
My partner would like to wear lower cut tops than she's allowed to at work, so I don't see how some arbitrary dress code reduces marginalization of women.
In some places how you dress is very important to clients, some people are able to see through the clothes one wears to the value they provide. There is no universal dress code that ends marginalization of women, because gasp different women have different opinions on what they'd like to wear.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tH...
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/nov/13/why-women-in-...
I don't think he's sexist, I'm sure he's a well-respected and well-liked scientist, and I don't think it's fair to judge someone's worth based on a short interview when they're not used to being in the spotlight.
At the same time, I would expect more professionalism from the whole staff at ESA. Are there any offices where wearing this [http://i.imgur.com/oJ9bVDt.jpg] shirt would be okay? People are making a big deal about the fact that a woman made the shirt for him, but they seem to be omitting that he provided the fabric and asked her to make it..
A large part of the rationale for missions like Rosetta is the inspiration it provides to the next generation of scientists. Hearing crude jokes about how 'easy' the mission was from a guy wearing a nudie shirt doesn't exactly invoke inspiration. It's a shame all of the other incredibly smart, professional, and inspirational people involved with the project are overshadowed by this.